Why not? If you can’t play them, it’s basically zero difference and if you can play them, you’re likely going to get a compensation ball PLUS the free points from your opponent fouling PLUS a free win over that opponent for them DQ’ing themselves. Obviously you don’t try to induce this behavior, but it seems like almost all benefit and no risk.
So that you still have your integrity.
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Unless your opponent accidentally (or intentionally if they’re really devious) starts some mode or multiball you have been setting up and spoils it. Or blows your skill shot (I’ve seen multiple Addams Family skill shots make the difference in a tournament with plunged EBs… actually, it decided league finals!).
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Implying I don’t have integrity if I don’t stop my opponent from shooting themselves in the foot? Not my problem.
EDIT: Victory by DQ happens all the time in individual sports. As long as I’m still within tournament rules, I see no problem with my integrity.
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In my opinion, integrity isn’t only staying within tournament rules. I do my best (admittedly, not always successfully) to treat others as I want to be treated. This gets to an issue of moral values – which happens to be part of the definition of integrity: “a firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values.” So my original comment stands.
Thankfully, the vast majority of what I’ve seen at pinball competitions is people genuinely looking out for each other vs. intentionally setting someone else up for a fall in order to gain advantage.
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Please go back and read what I posted. Nowhere did I say that intentionally trying to get some DQ’d was ok, in fact, I very explicitly said that trying to induce this is wrong. My position is that if someone is about to commit a foul, on their own, I’m under no obligation to stop them.
In fact, I could argue that in a >2 player match, calling out something to the effect of “hey, you’re about to play someone else’s ball!” is just as problematic as “hey, you have a ball save!” which we have said is poor form on a number of occasions. Imagine a situation where the only way player X can advance in a finals is if player Y takes a zero on the game being played. Player Y is about to play out of turn, and player Z blurts out “hey, it’s not your turn!” That player has materially affected the outcome of the match, potentially just as drastically as the ball save scenario. If one situation is wrong, then the other is wrong.
Whether one would want to claim a victory under those circumstances is purely a matter of opinion. I would have no problem with it, nor would I have a problem with anyone doing it against me if I was the one committing the foul. Tournaments have rules for a reason.
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As a veteran player, I feel I owe it to the sport to both show and encourage good sportsmanship. If I can do that by staying at a game for an extra 60 seconds to make sure all my EB’s are plunged, I’m going to do it every time. If you are a veteran player, I encourage you to do the same. For the sport, if not yourself.
I’m actually kind of happy to hear about the gambling and read about bong rips in the parking lot. The hobby and sport has become a lot nerdier in the last few years. I’d like to get some of the seedier side of pinball back in play. That said, I want it done with good sportsmanship. Shenanigans on the sidelines, no BS during competition.
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I agree that you’re under no obligation to stop them. But in my opinion, yes, you should stop them.
You could argue… but I think you’d lose – most people that I’ve talked to and that I’ve read on that subject in this forum state that those two things are very different: the latter falls under coaching, while the former falls under good sportsmanship. So let’s all be good sports and help each other to not play out of turn. We’re competing and playing pinball for fun. Playing out of turn isn’t fun.
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I have nothing bad to say about that.
But to spin this back around to the original topic, the situation where player 2 just tapped the flippers to cancel bonus and ends up getting DQ’d because of a tilt doesn’t strike me as very fair either. As described, that player clearly isn’t trying to “play” the machine, but this is apparently a situation where the letter of the law is appropriate. I accept that that is the rule, but it seems very harsh and getting DQ’d for that isn’t very much fun either.
I know we don’t like subjective rulings around these parts… but situations like this really make me rethink that sometimes.
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Very very fine line IMHO. Both of those are “player errors”; the difference is only a matter of timing. If I’m playing with buddies for fun and bragging rights, by all means, stop opponents from playing out of turn. But if I’m playing for big stakes, and I see an opponent about to make a disqualifying error… I might or might not choose to warn them of their error.
Just to use an example from a different established sport: if I’m an NFL quarterback and I see that a defensive lineman is lined up off-sides, do I walk over to them and say “excuse me, sir, you need to move a foot back or you’ll be penalized”? Or do I hike the ball immediately and take the “free play”?
To be clear: personally I don’t want to win a game this way. I want to win because I had the game of my life. But per @unsmith’s earlier example: if I’m going to be eliminated from a tournament unless player Y takes a zero on the current game… and player Y walks up to the machine out of turn… why the hell wouldn’t I bite my tongue and hope for a lucky break? I don’t consider this an integrity violation; I did not tell player Y “hey, you’re up” when that wasn’t true (inducing the error). I also don’t consider it an integrity violation if I’m player 1 to not advise my opponents “hey, the machine has sneeze tilt, and the scoop ejects SDTM”. It’s on them to pay attention.
It’s just good sportsmanship to warn a player about to step up to a game when it’s not their turn. It’s not about the letter of the rules, it’s just about fair play.
One of the many reasons American Football is a terrible sport. 
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In my opinion, integrity is reflected when your actions don’t change, regardless of the perceived benefit to you of a situation. Saying you don’t want to win a game this way, but being willing to intentionally allow it to happen (you see it about to happen, but take no action) only if the situational outcome is grand enough for you to alter your actions, is to me, a lack of integrity. And I hope that I would overcome my selfish tendencies to warn my opponent from playing out-of-turn if presented with that situation.
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It’s great that you would do that and I’m sure your future opponent will be thankful you did. That’s your choice.
There is also nothing wrong with others making the opposite choice. I’m a little uncomfortable with bringing up integrity issues for something that amounts to a subjective breakpoint on competitiveness and desire to win.
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Disagree. Not an integrity issue, not a sportsmanship issue, just a level of competition issue. I suspect everyone here has yelled “ball save!” to a player walking away from a machine at their local league, even if that league follows PAPA/IFPA rules and this is technically a coaching violation. And I suspect the same people who did that have held their tongue for the same situation at PAPA or Pinburgh. At the latter levels, competitors are expected to know better, and if they don’t, that’s on them. I don’t see playing out of turn as being any different.
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Id rather have an honest loss than a sleazy win.
I know that for a winner to be declared there must also be a loser. However, i am only interested in winning, i take no joy in others losses. That is why to players like me and @Snailman sitting back watching your opponent lose by their own mistake, rather than me winning with my own ability is unappealing.
I see that for others, a win is a win, no matter wether they earned it or not. Its a fundamental difference in character, that i dont think can be solved in this thread.
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For me this is absolutely situational. If it’s the difference between making a finals appearance or placing higher and earning more prize money, I’m absolutely going to take what I can get. I’m not blessed with enough raw talent to help my opponents not foul AND feel like I can win a lot.
Example: In our league rules, playing on during a multiball with a stuck ball is not a violation - our rules clearly state “play on.” However, I will generally not do this because it feels like taking advantage of a malfunction. Just about everyone else will play on, and I’m totally fine with that. However, if I’m down and on ball 3 and this happens, you betcha I’m playing on. The pinball gods are mean enough most of the time, when they bless you, sometimes you take it.
Everyone at pinball wins by watching their opponent lose due to their own mistake.
Opponent shook the game too hard and tilted? Their mistake.
Opponent bricked a shot and drained? Their mistake.
Opponent didn’t know the killer scoring strategy of a game? Their mistake.
If pinball players never made a mistake, the game would never end. Literally.
What you’re really saying is that you don’t like winning due to procedural mistake vs ball-in-play mistake, which is fine, but that’s just putting an arbitrary line on it. I suspect that most players in a competition smile, at least inwardly, if their opponent makes the mistake of bricking their shot and thereby losing.
But i cant improve their ability and prevent them from making those mistakes. I can prevent them from making the mistake of playing out of turn, therefore i will. Like i said, i know some only care about the W and not how it was won. Its just not me. I care about honest wins that i earned, not cheesy wins because my opponemt made a simple mistake.
Hypothetical question:
You’re playing an amateur, someone without a lot of tournament experience. It’s match play. They accidentally play an unallowable extra ball, an innocent mistake. At the time, they’re crushing you on the game.
Do you accept the cheesy win, or do you offer to replay the match because your opponent made a simple mistake?
Because it’s a violation of the rules. PAPA/IFPA Tournament Rules
Section 9. Player errors, paragraph 10.
“It is the responsibility of all players to ensure the correct player is on the machine at all times.”
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