Rulings Questions: 3 Scenarios

A few people can do this, others cant. And once a name has been said its impossible to remove that bias.

Everyone can do it, but some choose not to specifically because they want to influence the ruling. If it was a league or IFPA required ‘rule’, then regulars would have no excuse.

At a minimum, you should encourage it at the beginning of a league season. Also, when a situation inevitably comes up, on the way to find a TD, a quick ‘Remember, no names’ reminder on the way wouldn’t be out of line. I’ve done it.

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I would love to see a rule that requires a new TD to make a ruling if names have been dropped.

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In our league we don’t do names unless it’s extremely simple rulings (like stuck balls). One tool in the toolbox (since we have several officials) goes like this:

  • Official comes over, sees a player trapped up with a stuck ball in multiball. Obviously it’s impossible to avoid names.
  • Official gathers all information from players, does not make a ruling
  • Official locates another official elsewhere, relays all pertinent information
  • The new official makes the ruling, doesn’t know any of the players involved when making the ruling
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I know what you meant, but the rule would be for the players, not the TD.

  1. If a situation arises where a ruling is called for and the TD didn’t witness the incident, players in that game are required to report the incident without using names.

eg: Player one drains ball 3, walks away while bonus is collecting. Player two steps up to game and presses both flippers to complete bonus count. Game tilts before bonus count completes, player one loses bonus.

The rule would benefit TD’s, but it would be up to the players to follow the rule. Maybe one yellow card (warning) for the first slip up, but auto DQ if you do it again. It’s not a hard thing once you get a few people doing it.

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Which is probably why TDs have not been replaced by robots or AIs strictly following the rules.

There’s plenty of parameters that allow you to make the right decision in the right context:
Is it a high stakes comp with experienced players?
Is it even IFPA endorsed?
No keys, means you can decide to follow FSPA rules?
Do you want to promote competitive pinball and encourage players to come back or do you want to be harsh and have them learn the hard way?

All of the above while not giving an advantage to one or the other player… Is a tough job!

And again, these rules are recommendations only, but as pointed out, it’s always better to announce the kind of ruling you will apply for specific situations, until of course something unexpected happens :wink:

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Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I did not know about FSPA rules set. However, I realized these events are technically IFPA sanctioned so I need to apply the rulesset to the best of my ability. Thus no having people trying to shoot a ball loose during multiball…which is fine since the skill level at these events is not high enough to do this imo. >_<

It’s funny because it seems like things go smoothly for most events, but then ever 5-6 events there’s multiple ruling needed to be made. Nature of Pinball ™

Also, what’s the link for TD slack? I don’t have a non-professional Slack account but I’ll create one for help/info. :wink:

Part of the issue is no one really knows or cares to learn about rules so I have to keep reminding everyone of scenarios/situations.

Here’s what I think of each situation:

Situation #1
P2 should be DQ’d and I was going to do that if they caught up to P1 but I felt they weren’t going to (down 200M on GoT and they don’t know how to play that game). I know that I probably would have made P2 angry but I needed time to think about what to do. I will be telling palyers not to touch a machine until it says “Player X up”.

Also, my events have been head to head (and the location has 10 machines) so there’s not much fear of this occuring in a group play setting. If it was group play, P2 would finish last and P1 would get a compensation ball I think? (Though this could lead to collusion I suppose.)

Situation #2
I ended up letting them plunge both balls, and then watching as they drained one ball. I’m honestly thinking of just removing this machine from tournaments since this seems to happen now and then on it.

Situation #3
I actually was going to rule/explain to them they had to drain out the multi ball and wait for ball search, but in their (lazy?) attempts to trap out they drained 30s into the mball anyways and ball search found the trapped ball. Fortunately for them, the barn door swung the ball to the side so it didn’t go SDTM and they got to continue playing. :slight_smile:

Part of the issue with situation #3 is I was the opponent in #3, so I feel bad enforcing the rules to my benefit. I guess I’m willing to screw myself more than anyone else haha. It’s probably a good example of why I need another designated TD for the night or I shouldn’t play in events. It seems that people are unwilling to be a TD at this location though, so I guess I’ll just explain the rules better before we begin in these specific cases.

I have recently become a fan of anonymizing descriptions, and I will try to implement this in future events. I will be reminding players to anonymize ruling requests: “P1, P2, not I, Joe, Steve etc” for future events. Though in all these scenarios it’s pretty obvious which players have had which issues since 2 of the 3 scenarios are during live play. Scenario #1 I was actually watching so there was no anonymizing that. :confused:

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A couple of thoughts here, from someone who’s been running IFPA-sanctioned events at locations where I don’t have keys for almost a decade. Other posters have already told you what the rulings “should” be based on what happened, so I’ll skip that part and address a few specific points:

  • A tournament can be IFPA-sanctioned (aka worth WPPR points) even if it doesn’t rely on the IFPA/PAPA Tournament Rules. Tournaments just need to meet certain basic criteria in order to be IFPA-sanctioned. The IFPA/PAPA rules are recommended, but TDs can have house rules that meet their specific needs. For example, we can’t turn of extra balls in our events, so we allow players to plunge and flip once. Other areas and TDs handle extra balls differently, and that’s okay!
  • Apply your rules (whether homebrew or IFPAPA through and through) consistently and correctly and you shouldn’t have to worry about making someone mad or appearing biased toward certain players. If you have multiple TDs, you should make sure you all have the same understanding of the rules and how they’re applied. Having codified rules allows you to walk affected players through your decision-making process and explain why the rules are structured in a certain way.
  • If a game is consistently kicking out two balls when it shouldn’t, I’d pull it if you have enough other games to keep your event running smoothly. However, if it only happens occasionally, I find it’s a super easy and consistent ruling to say “2 balls in the plunger lane means you plunge both and drain one. If the drained ball comes back due to ball save, let it drain again. If draining the ball kills your flippers, you get a compensation ball. Otherwise, play on with one ball.”
  • In Scenario #1, P1’s ball had already ended when the interference happened. If it were a 4-player game, I would DQ P2, but I would not give P1 a compensation ball because nothing caused their ball to end prematurely, which was compensation balls are designed to address.
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Good intentions, but I would suggest to never keep rulings in your back pocket as a TD. It never turns out well. Rule timely and decisively.

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All my tournaments follow IFPA with ONE modification, we use the FSPA rule for stuck balls during MB, play on! No issues, no complaints, and a smoother TD experience.

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I don’t know. I’ve lost matches on stuck ball multiballs. It sucks from my perspective when a player is allowed to play on when they are clearly playing a Multiball mode hitting jackpots with a single ball in play.

Agreed. I’ve adopted an inbetween rule. As long as you have multiple balls in play, you’re good. As soon as it’s one stuck, one live, ifpa rules are used.

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I think an underused ruling in situations like this is the void and replay. Even if the player wasn’t aware they were abusing a stuck ball multiball, the score can obviously jump up significantly. The TD can rule that they gained undue advantage from the beneficial malfunction and have them replay the game without any additional penalty.

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I respectfully disagree. The best way to prevent this is to not touch the machine until it’s your turn. If I’m player 1 here, I can walk away from the machine at any time for any reason, it’s not my responsibility to ensure that another player doesn’t commit a foul.

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I agree, it’s absolutely not your responsibility… but you’re still out your bonus with no compensation. Take the initiative - don’t assume the next player knows (or cares) about the rule. I’m not advocating what P2 did; I’m saying this is one (albeit small) way to prevent yourself from getting hosed… just staying at the game til it kicks to the next player.

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Plus, you never know. You could stand there confused goin “what the f***” with your shoulders shrugged lookin around the room hoping your ball mysteriously pops back into play. Ive never seen it happen, but that hasnt stopped myself and everyone i know from trying for years. One of these days its gonna happen.

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One case where you absolutely don’t want to walk away is when you’ve earned an extra ball. I was playing in a tournament yesterday and multiple players where earning two EB’s while playing one ball on WWind. Couldn’t flip them, but could set up skill shots. Whether you can flip EB’s or not, you don’t want the next player accidentaly playing a ball for your game.

On stuck balls during multiball I wish there was a ‘one shot to knock it loose’ rule. If I see somebody do this, I won’t say anything. OTOH, if I see someone deliberately exploiting a stuck ball, I’ll sing like a canary.

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I can understand and have some sympathy with your motivation here as it seems like the path of least resistance/least confrontation, but you are gambling on the likelihood that it won’t make a difference and I really don’t think that’s ever a good idea. Put yourself in Player 2’s shoes. If Player 2 actually did make that one-in-a-million, come-from-behind win, you are not going to want to tell Player 2 “sorry, I meant to DQ you.” “Angry” wouldn’t really describe it if I were player 2 in that situation; I would be utterly crushed. I would much, much rather have a DQ given to me at the time than to learn after a hard fought battle that I was playing for nothing. It’s also not very honest because you’re withholding important information from both players (that the rest of the game doesn’t actually mean anything). If you didn’t DQ Player 2 at the time of being made aware of the violation, then you probably should accept that you made a ruling of “no penalty” by default and move on, perhaps using your reconsideration to make a better ruling in the future.

I might also mention that a rookie with little rules knowledge recently did about 700M on our GoT. Was it likely in your case? Probably not. But possible? It’s pinball; anything’s possible.

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When most people talk about being “IFPA sanctioned”, they’re referring to being eligible for WPPR points, a process that has its own set of policies and procedures (published to the IFPA calendar at least 30 days before the event starts, submit results within a certain time of the final, $1 per player payment, etc). However, events are not required to follow the IFPA/PAPA tournament rules in order to be eligible for WPPR points.

Lots of leagues and events (including, obviously, FSPA’s leagues) use FSPA rules in whole or in part. Lots of leagues and events use PPL rules in whole or in part, or TOPL rules in whole or in part… etc etc etc. None of this prevents these events from earning WPPRs. When you’re a TD, your job is to run a great event… so define a ruleset that helps you do that.

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If you’re playing in the tournament you’re directing, I would try, when possible, to have an assistant TD as you should avoid making a ruling on a game you’re playing. I assisted a friend (the TD of this particular tournament) who needed a ruling on a game he was playing, and the ruling, while fair and pretty clear cut, greatly upset his opponent (new to pinball and stumped by the whole thing). It wasn’t pretty and there was a lot of push back, but at least I had no skin in the game and the TD could continue his game without having to feel the stress of a having made a ruling to his own benefit.

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