So if I allow someone to play out of turn by saying nothing, what’s my penalty? The only one prescribed by the paragraph you quoted is “A player who plays out of turn in a multiplayer game will receive a score of zero.”
The penalty for announcing to any tournament director reading that you have no intention of following that rule depends on the TD. I would ask you not to play in my event if you’re not going to follow the rules.
I note you didn’t answer my question. What penalty do I receive in this situation?
What if in a 4-player game, one player is in the bathroom while another plays out of turn? Is the player in the bathroom DQ’d because all players are responsible?
EDIT: I’m fairly sure the intent of that line in the rules is to stop someone actively playing out of turn so that the real player in that slot doesn’t rack up tons of free points, since they would get to keep them in addition to a compensation ball, but I’d need an IFPA person to weigh in on that. I don’t think it’s meant to penalize the entire group when one player fouls.
I actually have allowed a replay before. With money on the line, in this exact scenario.
Next.
The obvious answer @joe is to sit with your back turned to the game until someone notifies you that it’s your turn. That would satisfy both sides 
1 Like
The opposite actually happened to me once. I was confused and wanted to warn a player he was about to play out of turn, while in fact it was his turn, adding more confusion and distraction in the equation.
Which is why I stopped doing anything.
A player wants to play out of turn. Why not. Just pay attention. I actually consider it distracting to monitor if players play out of turn or not. I know one thing: I’m player 3, I need to play when the game says player 3 is up. The rest is up to my opponents. Not an integrity issue, just competitive pinball.
Another example: during a matchplay comp, 2 games rounds, a player gets coached twice about ball save, and ends up winning both games. I was facepalming. Where’s the integrity here? You decided to coach a player and it impacts everybody else, not just you.
I get that warning about playing out of turn is not coaching per se, as this is not their turn, so it’s still considered to be “between balls” but still, it will impact everybody.
1 Like
Yes. Immediate red card and DQ. Going to the bathroom when it’s not your turn is poor sportsmanship.
d;^)
Our sport isn’t easy to officiate. That’s why we have so many threads like this one. I think that’s a good thing. Pinball is complicated on a number of levels. You could throw out hypotheticals all day here and no one would be able to answer them all correctly. Let alone want to answer them all.
One of the things that attracted me to the sport was the good sportsmanship and comradery I saw among the players. I had the good fortune to compete and play with Neil Shatz a lot. Neil is the poster boy for good sportsmanship and class in pinball. Competitive or otherwise. I learned a lot by watching him. If you ever get a chance to compete with Neil, watch how it’s done.
1 Like
I agree. And just in case it hasn’t been clear so far, I’m not the type that goes around actively looking for ways to get people DQ’d or looking for rules loopholes or anything like that. I was just speaking out about a certain specific situation and how I felt doing nothing was a viable choice, though clearly it’s a more impassioned topic than I anticipated.
I haven’t had the chance to compete against Neil, but I have against other luminaries in our sport. Without naming names, there are definitely plenty of class acts and some with less letters before “acts.” 
I respect them all, we all have different tolerance levels for everything.
5 Likes
I want to address the counterpoint being made in this thread: The Pinburgh Rule. I don’t like the Pinburgh rule, and I haven’t liked it from the moment it was announced. It has always felt like implementing that rule was done with good intentions, but was shortsighted. I don’t like the rules saying that I can’t do something because it will impact the 2 players not involved, specifically that I can’t tell the player at the machine that they have a ball save, or on a game like baracorra that the ball that kicks out of the top saucer is playable. And then calling it coaching to get around an icky feeling (and calling it coaching was not part of the initial rationale for the rule). And then handing out a penalty.
I am and have been against this rule from the beginning. I was also quite surprised that it was introduced at Pinburgh, which I consider to be the ultimate combination of elite competitive players and casual pinball fans who are drawn to the largest pinball tournament in the known universe.
But, that said, I agree that stopping a player from playing out of turn will likely have a greater impact on the other two players than shouting ‘ball save.’ And stopping a player from playing out of turn is acceptable and even encouraged by the rules. So I suggest we walk back the Pinburgh Rule. We accept that each player will impact the other players. It happens all the time in game four, when a player’s fate is determined and they decide to play hard or without care. Advancing their friend, letting fate decide, or eliminating their friend.
I have seen it said by a player who I will not name, let’s call that player JS, that if he has a choice to tank a game and advance his mom or play hard and advance Keith Elwin, that he will play in a way to advance his mom. If the rules require it, JS will perform the task in a way that satisfies observers that this was not done on purpose.
I put forward the idea that yelling ‘ball save’ is something we might have done for years in non-competitive settings and penalizing it feels far worse knowing that in game 4 one player can actively decide another’s fate. It feels silly knowing that yelling ‘ball save’ is a penalty and yelling ‘it’s not your turn’ is advocated in the rules.
7 Likes
Late response, but:
If I don’t see it and the group can’t confirm it, P1 gets nothing and Pinball ™ occurs.
If I/another TD sees it or the group can confirm it, P1 gets the points.
I was the benefit of a sister ruling to this; an EM froze during bonus countdown before I went to the dark side of Pinburgh and I was awarded the points since the TD could verify game state.
1 Like
Man, I really do not like that this turned into a discussion on integrity in competition. I really don’t like that folks are challenging another’s integrity for allowing someone to DQ themselves.
If you play in any organized competition, sooner or later you are going to commit a foul that costs you, or you will benefit from a foul someone else makes. When I played basketball and the ref called a foul on my opponent, even if they didn’t actually foul me, I still took the free throws. If the opposite happened, I had to learn that’s just part of the game and part of competition in general.
“It is the responsibility of all players to ensure the correct player is on the machine at all times.” Is fine and all but it has zero teeth and it’s unenforceable. How can you ever prove that someone could have stopped a player from playing out of turn? You can’t which is why if a someone plays out of turn they get DQed. The person making the mistake is penalized, not all players. If it the responsibility is truly falls on all players, then all players should be penalized equally, or the game should be started over.
I’ve played in a number of tournaments with @unsmith , and we’re friendly and all, but if he let me play a ball out of turn for a spot in a final or anything, I wouldn’t be mad at him. Honestly, I expect that from just about everyone, because it’s all a part of the competition. I mean, even if he did that to me in league, I’d still think it’s fine, though I’d probably pull his chain a little. To me, it’s part of the competition. I should be mentally focused, and prepared to play my ball, and if I overlook the fact that it’s not my turn, well I deserve it. That get’s to a main point that @unsmith was making here, everyone has a different tolerance level when it comes to competition and that should be okay. Pinball is weird. There aren’t ton of sports where a first timer can be in a tournament and even get paired with the best in the world. There also aren’t a ton of sports where half the field is drinking and smoking, and get wrecked on mind altering substances during the competition. I think we need room for both the more competitive and the more causal players.
8 Likes
In all honesty, if I was actually presented with that situation with enough foreknowledge to do something about it, I likely wouldn’t do it. My point was simply that you can do that, if you want; it’s not a foul to let someone hang themselves.
1 Like
I had always assumed the purpose of “it is the responsibility of all players to ensure the correct player is on the machine” is to make it clear that if someone plays out of turn and it screws you, you have no basis for complaint because you could/should have stopped them from playing out of turn. For instance, if they benefit a third player in your match, earning a bunch of points for them (that they get to keep) and causing them to pass you. Just because the person who plays out of turn gets a DQ doesn’t mean it’s a guaranteed positive occurrence for others in the match.
9 Likes
Well said, @SAFBrian. Allowing the established rules of an event to be enforced isn’t a matter of integrity, it’s just part of the competition.
2 Likes
There was some discussion by Josh and others about the current wording and reasoning of the playing out of order rule 3 years ago when the wording was updated.
http://tiltforums.com/t/ruling-playing-out-of-turn/630/11