Pre ruling request / discussion on Foo Fighters Post outlane ball saver

That post placement makes it so close to an Bangback / death save that will need to be ruled that any bumping of the table when it is up and an ball is on it = DQ?

Will the game be coded to be when up ball will be saved at all times / be an setting?

If not an it’s said to be you need to skill it back into play then up then that = The game it self is saying try do an weak Bangback / death save (not like the OLD DE games that give points for one but had no posts)

1 Like

Haha watched the trailer then came here to see if there was a thread about the post yet. Right on cue!


I mean, it’s a game feature. You can’t have a DQ for using a game feature.


That topic did not take long… :smile: I am sure the good people at Stern will add a menu setting having the outlane saver go trough/auto plunger style for competition play.


So on DE R&B, JP and TFTC I can death save under that ruling? Or maybe not as that is just points and not really an game feature.

But on games like WOZ do what ever when by the bumper (not 100% the same thing and not in the death save zone)

also this is not an center post as well.

maybe but they over do it both ways.

  1. one way that remove kickbacks is really not done that much.
  2. the game may give more kickbacks then others at each difficultly level as they are not 100% but setting the post to disabled may make it give one all the time and that likely will not change the difficultly levels.
  3. the game may just be coded to make it an 100% thing even if there is an miss and then TD will need to post an note saying do not bump the game the ball will come back 100% of the time. (yes in this case they will need to say no Bangback / death saves WITH AN NOTE ON THE GAME.

The IFPA rules were made before a game with a post creating this feature existed. It would be impossible to really put in the rules “Bangbacks don’t count if they create a game in the future with a feature that acts like one”

If I’m going off pure technicality, the post being there is NOT a bangback due to it not hitting the back of the apron at all.

Sure, maybe you’ll have to actually watch someone play to “make sure” they had the post enabled and saved the ball.

It could be me, but I really don’t see this being an issue. Not to mention we can’t even speculate on this, how it works, how to use it etc due to well the game was JUST announced. Everything will be ok.

1 Like

Are you thinking of Death Saves? That’s where it hits the apron and bounces up. On Foo Fighters, it’s kind of like an assisted Bangback.

Should be allowed in IFPA rules for this game, including with a nudge.

Most likely am! I assume because it’s an added feature and is a replacement for a kickback it would be allowed. Doesn’t the JP home pin have the same feature?

A game acknowledging and even rewarding a deathsave or bang back is different from a mechanical feature that pops a ball back into play. It’s basically like a (I’d expect) less reliable kickback.

But the IFPA do have wording like that for dirty pool / stuck balls. So if going on that then you should be able to do Bangbacks / death saves all day on long on the DE games that do give you something for them. As that rule is mostly based on game software rules.

Maybe the Bangbacks / death saves rules need to be updated in an more basic way to cover games with posts any where in the drain area as well outlane posts saying that you can nudge the game at any time and in that case there are no max Lazarus rule to cap you.
As there are other games with posts in the drain area that may of been put there to try to save the ball.

With the outlane posts higher up on some games having an fair/foul line rule can be iffy / may need per game ones and you may need an game / video judge to enforce it.

Bangbacks and death saves are techniques. Those remain banned but Lazarus balls are acceptable. The example of the WOZ left outlane is an exact comparable scenario.

but that is not really in the Bangbacks / death saves area and then you can’t have an max Lazarus rule

“6. Death Saves, Bangbacks, etc
Techniques known as “Death Saves” and “Bangbacks” are sometimes employed by certain advanced players. Because the effectiveness of these techniques varies from machine to machine, and because of the risk of injury to either player or machine, these techniques are banned from tournament play. In the event that a drained ball bounces back into play without deliberate player action, such as in the case of a “lazarus”, this is considered the mechanical nature of pinball and the ball may be played. If this situation occurs repeatedly, and there is question as to whether the lazarus ball was naturally occurring or induced by the player, Tournament Directors may end the game in progress and award a score of zero.”

Above is the current rule wording. I don’t think it really needs to be said, but a reference to the few exceptional situations could be added.

“If a playfield feature exists to physically return a ball into play, it is enabled and active, the ball will not be considered “drained” until it has moved beyond the feature. For example: outlane kickbacks, WOZ left outlane pop bumper area, Bally Viking’s outlane post/gate combination, Stern’s Foo Fighter’s “Overdrive” post, etc.”

If you wanna cover your bases further, you could even add in “When software references or rewards a banned technique, that technique still remains banned.”

I’d say since it’s added to the game this is considered “mechanical nature”. So it’s legal and not a bangback or death save.

so that really puts dirty pool into an very iffy spot and what about RollerCoaster Tycoon’s 2 for 1 where on an double lock kick out it just gives you MB? that would run right into the When software references or rewards a banned technique and the banned technique is FREE MB.

Now the If a playfield feature exists to physically return a ball into play part may need to drop the enabled and active part to make easier on TD’s who may not know all game rules.
Just like how the dirty pool rules need game rule knowledge on what games have code for dirty pool

I know that list is missing x-files dirty pool like case in truth MB But it very clearly in the code.

and what about other games with posts in the drain area?

Which other games have a post in the same spot for the specific reason of acting as a “skillful” kickback? Plus this save needs to be earned in game(or it also starts lit I assume)

1 Like

Who the hell uses Premium or LE for competition anyway lol… I know I probably won’t have to worry about it…