Cool, Doug. Thanks. I feel confident it was L-8.
There is also an issue where an unknown sequence of events will drop you out of multiball immediately, even with multiple balls in play. This happened twice in a single tourney (to the same player on two separate games no less) which caused us to never use it again.
2 Likes
Pool Sharks.
Slings may decrement the jackpot by 995K, rather than an increment by 5K.
4 Likes
I’ve seen an issue quite often on World Poker Tour, and I’m curious if this is a known software bug, or something else:
The game will sometimes get into a bad state where Hold 'em Hands will no longer advance. If you hit a ramp, skill shot, or mystery award that advances your Hold 'em hand, it instead repeats the same cards you received in the previous advance. If it happens on the flop, it sometimes breaks before it gives you all 3 cards. (In happened to me in this image. Notice that the 5th card is missing.)
If one player gets into this bad state, other players aren’t affected. But the affected player is stuck in this state for the rest of his/her game – it doesn’t resolve itself in the next ball, nor does All-In MB resolve it by “completing the hand”. (All-In MB starts, but the hand remains the same.)
I haven’t seen this happen in a tournament, but if it did, I’m not sure what the ruling would be. It’s bad news for a player that gets into this state. Since they can’t complete a hand, they can’t light or play any further modes, they can’t relight and play Ace-in-the-Hole MB, and they can’t complete cities (not to mention that WPT Championship and Keefer Inv. are out of the picture). All that’s left for them is No Limit MB, All-In MB, and drop awards.
From reading the IFPA/PAPA rules, there doesn’t seem to be any difference between a software bug and a physical malfunction. So a software bug could be a Minor, Major, Catastrophic, or Beneficial Malfunction, depending on the bug. But the definition of a Major Malfunction seems to require a loss of ball, which is not the case here. Furthermore, “Loss of any lit feature, running mode, or other
gameplay specifics, shall not be considered a major malfunction.” But this issue would seem so severe, I don’t see how this could be considered anything other than a Major. I would be tempted to record their score, and give them compensation ball(s) on a new game.
I’ve seen some inconsistent rulings on some of the software bugs in this thread. For example, I hit the T2 Super Jackpot bug in a tourney once and it was ruled as a “Known Issue, Play on”. But at PAPA14, the ruling was “Play on, but we’ll add an extra 50M points”.
So, to summarize:
- Can anyone confirm if this is a known bug?
- In a tourney, would this be a Minor or a Major Malfunction?
1 Like
1 Like
Remember that “general use” rulesets like the PAPA/IFPA ruleset might be used in events with any of thousands of unique games (never mind different revisions of those games). It’s somewhere between “impractical” and “impossible” for rulesets like that to offer specific advice on all of the countless software and/or hardware glitches that might arise on a game. “My ball ended when it wasn’t supposed to” (“Major Malfunction”) is a relatively common problem for which suggested remedies can be offered… ditto “the game ended when it wasn’t supposed to” (“Catastrophic Malfunction”). For serious glitches beyond that, you’re left with the ruling of a Tournament Director who is hopefully knowledgeable and wise, at least about her specific event and its games… but who still might make Decision A when another TD might make Decision B in the same situation… and then we all go post-mortem debate those decisions at length. 
Personally, if I was TD and a player reported to me that WPT was no longer advancing hold 'em hands – after verifying the problem and in the absence of any other supporting rulings – I would probably offer the player the option to treat the situation as a Catastrophic Malfunction: the game system has failed (apparently only for that player). If the player accepted this option, their current score would be recorded, the rest of their game voided, and they would be allowed to add the score earned after playing the number of lost balls (including the ball in progress) in a new game after the machine is fixed (probably just a power cycle in this case). If the player declined this option, there would be no compensation, play on. It’s somewhat unusual in competitive play to offer players a choice of remedies, but in this particular situation, I can’t think of a way that a player could unfairly benefit by continuing to play in this state, and I’d be loathe to have a negative malfunction unilaterally void someone’s entire game that may have been doing well, or who might be on the brink of a wizard mode or suchlike. If at all possible, I’d also confer with other TDs before making an “off-book” ruling.
3 Likes
maybe the IFPA needs rules for games that have modes that END Game as part of the game rules? when the mode is over? (there have been some games where on older roms they can crash when you get to some modes)
Does it force the game to have an TPG of 1 ball?
Does the lost balls count as comp balls on an new game?
What about modes that you can fail and that as part of the game rules it kills the flippers and ends the ball (not the same as the outline drain Second Chance modes in some games)
Games with (modes that you can fail even in multi ball) where after freeing an stuck ball (as IFPA rules say stop in multi ball) the TD must hit an 0 / low point switch to re-enable the flippers (part of the code)
TNA reactor 9, JP Nublar, and the final Operation Thunder mission all end your game as part of the rules - ruling seems to be to take it as-is.
The only mode that ends your ball if you fail I’m aware of is TWD Horde - and that’s only if you enable the setting to let it do that (which may be in comp install).
And the ruling on the TPG of that?
Final Operation Thunder mission is an setting
Also stuck ball rules for an timed mode that ENDS GAME??
Operation Thunder has modes with out of fuel ends ball (no setting)
Other stuff like in the sonic home brew has water levels where fail to hit an switch in a x time kills flippers (even in multi ball) but also has recovery after that if that switch is hit.
The ifpa rules don’t say any thing about mode fail = end ball (but seem to say TD can’t hit the switch after freeing stuck ball)
(even in multi ball where one stuck ball = trap up and wait)
So why should an player report an stuck ball and wait to lose both multi ball and the ball in play.
That stuff needs to be in the rules + an rule for mode ends game as that is starting to show up in newer games.
Thanks @jmg! That was exactly what I was looking for. I guess I necro’ed the wrong thread. 
But at least we can add WPT to the list of known bugs.
Regarding tournament rulings, it looks like we’re on the same page, @joe. I also agree that the player should have the option to decline the compensation balls and play as is, in case they have something good lined up. Fortunately, that option is included in the IFPA/PAPA rules. I’d be very curious to hear what the ruling was when @cayle hit it at Expo.
I was a collegiate football official, so I’m used to citing the rulebook to justify a ruling. Football has a rule that officials affectionately refer to as “The God Rule”. Basically, it states that if any situation comes up that creates an unfair act, then the referee can make up any penalty he wants. The classic example is when a runner has beat the whole defense and is streaking down the sideline for an apparent breakaway touchdown, so a bench player on the sideline either sticks out a leg to trip him or jumps off the sideline to tackle him. Technically, this would be Illegal Participation and a 15 yard penalty, but the runner would still be down. Since this would obviously be unfair, the referee can invoke the God Rule, and award the penalty of a touchdown (and probably also a DQ and 15 yards on the kickoff).
It feels like pinball also has a God Rule that allows the TD to use their best discretion to deal with these strange bugs whenever they pop up. I suspect that’s how PAPA14 decided to award 50M for the T2 SJ bug. (A ruling I completely agree with, btw.)
It should be noted that when the WPT glitch happens on the river, since it repeats the last card you received from then on, the game rewards you with a main pot collection for every ramp you hit for the rest of the game. So if it glitches on the river of the 4-of-a-kind hand, then every ramp would be worth at least 4.2M. So this bug can potentially be a Beneficial Malfunction, which would mean a different ruling.
I’ll leave it to @cayle to figure out the repro steps so that he can exploit this bug at just the right moment.
2 Likes
Hey Lonnie,
This actually happened to me in a four player group at your NWPC way back in the day. I believe that @pinwizj and/or @cayle was in my group. I wasn’t too familiar with the game at the time, so it took quite a few shots before I realized that something was fundamentally wrong because I could no longer advance my hand no matter what I did, but it was clearly the bug you describe. I think it was a close a game and I was on ball 3 needing less than 10 mil or so to win. This was back in 2010 (?) or so and I think after a lot of discussion (I had cradled up to ask about it) everyone in the group decided that I had “won” the game because I certainly had made enough shots to have won if it were scoring correctly and the bug didn’t seem to have affected any of the other player’s scores. Looking back, I don’t think a similar “ruling” could or would be made in today’s hyper-rigid-official-rules world in which we play, lol, but things were a LOT different back then, and I remember the incident mostly because everyone in the group agreed pretty quickly to what seemed fair. Maybe Josh or cAyle can add more to what is most assuredly a fuzzy memory at best. btw, the final 8 in the tournament that year were Elwin, Gagno, cAyle, Zach, NES(!), Belsito, Eden, and me, with Josh and Raymond going out in the quarter finals. Now that was a stacked field! No wonder the NWPC back then was considered by many at the time to be the best tournament not-named-PAPA! lol. Good Times!
3 Likes
Counts as a full game. You do that on any of those games you game has taken way too long already. Haha
Good times, indeed! Sounds like great sportsmanship from everyone involved! You’re right – I don’t think that ruling would happen nowadays.
I didn’t do many NWPCs back then, but there was a time in 2009(?) that my best friend was taking his young kids to the show, so I joined them. I was there to spend time with his kids, not play in a tournament. So I played a single ticket in NWPC that year. I figured if I made the playoffs, great. If not, no worries. And yes, the field was stacked: KME, NES, Trent, the Sharpe brothers, cAyle, Becker, Gagno, Belsito. I missed the cut, but looking back, I finished right between a young Raymond and an even younger Josh Henderson, who was probably 9 years old at the time. So I’ll count that as a success. 
2 Likes
but the written rule is “Any game where it’s possible for the player to finish on the first ball in play, will be calculated at 33% value for TGP purposes.” For all players
also there is no written rule covering mode fail = ends ball or mode ends game / mode ends game with any left balls being plunge ball only with no flippers (can look like an tilt thought (you do not want to false DQ an other player in that case) )
Let’s say in 1 one game 2 players both hit the mode ends game mode on ball 1 or 2 Should be both be tied 1st by rule? Get comp balls? Forced to play an playoff game? As both players did not get to play all of there 3 balls.
Should any game with mode ends game have an setting to trun that of in comp play?
In an hyper-rigid-official-rules world we need to cover stuff like this or set up front rules for the event if games with stuff like that are being used in it.
You don’t have to tell an player who trapped to free an stuck ball in multi sorry this is not really covered in the rules but other rules say you lose the ball and the multi ball. Or even your game is over.
I believe this applies to the format not the games code. Pin golf being the main example.
Why wouldn’t their score differentiate them?
Exactly. If a game has a hard-stop ending, the player who scored the most points getting to the end is the winner. The current games with endings (JP2, TnA) last plenty long enough for player skill (and not luck) to determine the results.
I do agree this should be clarified in rules at some point.
other official rules say things like if an player get the max score then that is there score (and will be tied if more then one does the same) + the papa very good game rule that says you stop and if an other player gets to that same score they are tied. So if any thing the 2 closest clarified in rules things do point to an tie.
Yeah but there isn’t a max score in any of the games you’ve mentioned. Only that they played modes that ended the game. Their scores would be different. Use the scores.