I don’t see any problem with tilts per game at all.
It’s the ‘perception of a problem’, which is a problem.
People are just so used to having games set up and playing the way a Stern does that anything that differs from that is instantly seen as wrong.
It’s being made worse by ‘lazy’ TDs setting the tilts extremely sensitive on EVERY machine to manage ball times, when there are so many other ways of doing so, and usually needs a differing approach on each machine. Some games play easier when set steep rather than shallow, others sling shot sensitivity is the biggest factor, rubbers on inlanes affect some games more than others, power of kickouts from scoops can mean the difference of a safe catch and ball is wild. Whether super bands or rubbers are used for the flippers, what colour rubber, the list is near endless.
That’s before you start adjusting software settings.
There is never going to be a one fix setup, nor should there be, variety is what makes it a challenge and gives the best overall players the best chance of progressing.
The same way that tilts are generally set looser on a tilt ends game machine, the same should be taken into account when setting the tilt on a warnings per game machine.
Doing this is usually a function of WHEN a machine arrives at the tournament and how much time is available to tweak things. A quick band aid is to just crank the slope up, pull posts, tighten the tilt, and walk away. It’s effective, but extremely frustrating for players.
How long should it take to set up say 12 machines in a thoughtful, effective manner (especially ones that arrive in varying states of repair… gross repairs would take precedence over nuances in setup because it would just have to). You could easily spend 2-3 hours per machine doing this, time that you just don’t have depending on personnel and their individual talents. There were several tournaments in the past I participated in the setup and tech support of machines… 3-4 years in a row, 1/2 the machines would literally arrive 10 minutes before the doors opened at the show, so setup of 4 machines in 10 minutes AND get them tournament “ready” in any fashion (and guaranteed a couple from certain people would ALWAYS arrive broken in some semi-major way.) is extremely difficult and stressful.
What IS helpful is soliciting machines from people who keep their machines tournament ready all the time in their collections, so that when they arrive at the event a couple playtest games is all it takes. That was few and far between though.
Just as a point of interest, in Chile there is basically only one pinball spot: Entretenemientos Diana, in Santiago. They’ve basically continued the EM “contract” to the present day: all games are set to 5 balls and there are no warnings, your first bob-ring contact ends ball, even on Iron Maiden.
Fascinating… and not unfair, given that there is a balance they’re attempting to strike by giving an additional two balls per game, guaranteed.
Where I’ve gotten very frustrated with a location putting moderns on Zero Warnings settings is the Silver Ball Planet in Osaka, Japan – all still three ball. Ironically, they have VERY skilled techs who take ridiculously good care of around 100 pins in one location, and in their frustration with skilled players nudging their pins… rather than simply tightening their tilts (many were quite loose) or increasing game difficulty in the myriad of mechanical ways mentioned in this thread, they resorted to eliminate tilt warnings. And sadly, there are a few pins that are set quite tight, and not worth playing.
The good news: if there are 10 that are too tight, you still have NINETY other pins to choose from.
Last time I was there, I was excited to get some quality time on JJPOTC… sadly, no tilt warnings + a Tortuga saucer that kicked SDTM 90% of the time = I played something else.
This is ideal, getting machines from people who understand how to set a machine up is preferred.
I recently ran a comp requiring 10 machines. I provided 3 myself, and then visited 2 other people who I was taking machine from and helped set them up to the required standard, then helped break them down so they were ready to just be loaded into the van the day before.
Time spent preparing is never time wasted.
The owners also appreciated the help in setting down their machine.
It meant that there were only 3 machines which needed inspection before the comp - a much more manageable figure.
“Nudging” warnings - per ball. “Sliding” warnings - last through game. [Better yet, set tilt mech so sliding goes directly to tilt, no warning.]
Creating tilt “warnings” was not entirely good. Yes, it’s good in that it gives the player an idea of how much they can do before the game tilts, rather than finding out the hard way that your ball or game is over, especially when the tilt is set tight. Where the problem arose is that most tilt mechanisms don’t discriminate well between one-time violent movements and gradual pendulum-swing accumulation. I prefer no leniency for violent movements, do it and you tilt, period, just like was the case before warnings were created. The leniency of a tilt “warning” should be preserved for non-violent movements and the accumulation thereof.
While it only applies to the very recent modern pins, I appreciate the new adjustment for debounce milliseconds, which makes an attempt to address this very issue.
Not really fair to describe this as a Stern thing. The standard “per ball” tilt warning behavior has been pretty much unchanged since sometime in the mid-80s, when games would flicker the GI and make a distinctive sound to indicate a tilt warning. That’s ~35 years of acquainting players to that behavior. I’m certainly not going to say that just because something is long-lived that it should remain unchanged forever. However, it is indisputable that “tilt warnings per game” is entirely a negative change for the customer (the player), no up side for them at all. It may or may not be a positive for the other customer (the operator)… all else being equal, Average Time per Game will be flat or down, which may improve coin drop, unless the players decide they don’t like the change and play less, or choose to play another game instead.
I have been thinking about this. I do not see much queues on games around here. I truly believe that a substaintial coin box is from skilled players. When they want to come back. Explorer the game deeper, point press the game for GCs. So I ask, what is wrong with giving these guys a bit of value for money?
If we for a minute pretend that wear, down time and maintainance is not critical regardless.
I like to make a few orther points.
Even if lowest game time = highest earnings is an old operator myth. Or if it is true on a few locations, though far from everywhere. As a manufacture, you have to work with customers on their expectations of the product you have to sell them. JJP meeting these expectations thinking new is legit product developement.
Having games in-use on locations spike interest in them. Taking your barcade mixed-crowd location. Will the 2% interest in pinball people be drawn to quite “light show” in the corner? Or more towards a couple of pinheads rocking it out. I say the latter is instrumental in feeding the beast. Yeah, no newbies are going on the game, if the pinheads are hugging it all day. But, hopefully, if this is the case, the game is having good earnings by this type of usage.
It’s rare I agree with Soren, but, welp, here it is
Imo, being exposed to a pretty large location scene here in Seattle, operators aren’t scrambling for ways to remove value from their players. If they were, we’d see EB’s and replays turned off on locations (which they aren’t). I’ve never once had a discussion with a local OP where they are grumpy about a skilled player having really long games. …Though, just my own experience.
Completely agree. Skilled players also often visit locations at their slowest times. I know I do. If I’m playing a game and someone else shows any inclination to play that game, whether it’s the newest or oldest game there, I will either invite them to play doubles or move on at the end of my game. I also never stack credits to scare others off. If I get a replay, I don’t add any more credits, just play the game I won. Which brings me to my next point…
Location pinball is changing in a lot of ways. Maintenance-wise, I don’t ever remember it being better. Gone are the old white guy operators who only emptied the coin boxes every two months and gave the playfield a quick wipe. That great maintenance leads to more replays. These operators are also often hobbyist. You see them at shows and tournaments. Because they’re also players, their settings are generally easier. Looser tilts and less pitch. I played my best game so far recently on Wonka. Think it was 3.7M. Game is set to two tilt warnings per ball. I got two quick tilt warnings on one big move. That was it for three balls and one or two extra balls. No other warnings. If the operators are making it easy, software changes aren’t going to help.
Lastly, I think there’s less camping on games than there has ever been. Pinheads new and old just seem to get along better. I think the barcade environment helps with this. Not the same vibe as the old arcades. Also, if 95% of the games are working properly at a location, no one is fighting over games other than maybe the newest. We have less locations than we did in the 90’s, but we have more larger locations with more games. Gone are the 7/11’s with only one game where camping happened regularly.
One of the operators at a local barcade, who is also an organizer for CAX, told Steve Ritchie (at CAX) that no one spends more on BK3 than I do. I was standing there and I didn’t deny it.
I am pretty sure I wanted to know that rule (per game vs per ball) on Wonka at a tourney by looking at the status report before the ball was plunged. Held in both flippers momentarily, it paged to the first status report based on time, but when I hit one of the flippers to advance it reset back to the main score screen. In game with ball trapped on a flipper I could hold both to start status report, then page through the screens.
