With video review available – how would you rule?
Without video review – what facts would you gather on site, and how would you decide?
Consistency across player skill/knowledge levels – how do you keep rulings fair when some players instantly recognize a stuck ball MB and call a TD, while others (equally skilled in ability) may not notice? Should lack of situational awareness ever factor into a ruling?
Role of opponents / spectators – To what extent should other players be responsible for flagging the issue? How do you handle situations where their sight line or rules knowledge is limited?
Real world precedents – have you issued (or seen) rulings on similar cases? What penalties, score adjustments, or voids were applied?
Context & concerns driving the question
In our local scene several strong, experienced players routinely miss stuck ball situations and happily keep flipping. If the default ruling is “no penalty because the player didn’t notice,” there is no incentive to learn the correct behaviour (trap up, call TD).
Knowledge gap shouldn’t decide outcomes: we DQ even new players for playing out-of-turn or tilting through, so why not apply an equally clear cut consequence for playing on with a beneficial stuck ball?
Adjustment vs void/replay:
– Score adjustments can feel arbitrary when we cannot pin down exactly how long the advantage lasted.
– No adjustment feels unfair to the other opponents.
– Voiding and replaying the game can sometimes reward the offender (e.g., if they were far behind on Ball 3).
– What default call strikes the best balance when the exact duration of advantage and points scored is uncertain?
Appreciate everyone’s thoughts, especially any concrete examples of rulings you’ve made so I can build a consistent policy going forward. Thank you!
well it’s not the same as out of turn as the Knowledge gap on games rules / logic is not basic like tilt or your trun.
It does not help that IFPA has not updated the dirty pool / not stuck ball list.
Lots of games have relocks / places to hold balls in MB that are part of the game rules Also DQ on game rules Knowledge is bad and can be really BAD if the TD/TO gets it wrong.
Also can’t have someone who worked on the game playing makeing any kind of ruling. To bad you can’t rule on your own group you are playing in.
On some games you may not know that you are in MB play with only 1 ball in play.
Maybe any one should be allowed to call for ball stack and players are NOT ALLOWED to tell people to back off.
Well what happens with an stuck ball that can only be seen with an over head video feed? Also to be fair all games in the round need to be on video?
I think only video judges / TD/TO should be allowed to call for an review not any random viewer I think some pro golf players got fucked over something that was only seen on super slowmo. And they had an take an extra penalty for not marking the penalty on there score card.
Sounds like a case of getting Sterned. Many recent Sterns have at least one multiball where you can temporarily lock a ball for a varying amount of time. Someone used to those held balls might easily assume the older game was doing the same thing. In this case, I’d rule that both players replay the game (not just one, that would give a “knowing the score to beat” advantage to the score-dq’ed player, plus the other player might have played differently due to the offending player’s score).
This brings another thought to mind: what happens if a legitimately held-in-the-lock ball fails to be released “on time”? Say you’re on Metallica and the ball stays locked for a minute or two longer than it’s supposed to? Who would know? What if the ball is knocked back into the lock as it’s about to come out by one of the other balls still in play and remains in there? How would / could at TD handle either?
I think that the dirty pool rules / not stuck ball rules need to be simplified or the IFPA needs to put in the work of keeping the list up to date (that means listing rom / software versions / mods as well)
Also even games like AFM have an max dirty pool setting.
Other games have settings that control timing / virtual locking
@pinwizj The legitimately held-in-the-lock ball part just makes basing on if it has an something in the game code need an even deeper knowledge dump.
Now maybe some way to be simplified.
For games with up / down banks is can you hit something (be an target / scoop / bumper / etc) with an ball resting on it with the force of an ball hitting it from the other side
1A. captive ball posts / forks allow more then 1 ball to be held in them.
Games with relocks (not post locks) / magnet holds / etc After about 1-2 min (maybe more if on screen timer says so) of one ball play must trap up and then wait up to 60 sec trapped to time out any held lock timers.
drop targets that block shots and are game controlled (game can put down at will) allowed like rule 2.
I really don’t like the idea of both players replaying. If I were Player 1 having a great game, and then had to replay because Player 2 exploited a multiball, I’d be very unhappy. This would be even worse if it affected three other players!
That said, I’m not sure what the best ruling is and have struggled with this myself. I’m inclined to say that if it is possible to figure out an approximate number of points affected (e.g. subtracting the value of a super jackpot) I’d probably try to go with that. I recognize the severe limitations of that, however.
So I think if the TD was called over and there was a determination that during the stuck ball period the player had a significant advantage from the continued play, you can have that player replay that game or if you can reasonably estimate the amount of points awarded during the stuck ball, you can deduct those from their score.
I believe it is also the responsibility of the group and player to notice a stuck ball and trap up immediately. If the group notices it, they should get a TD asap to come and rule on it.
Or if it’s easier, you can just use the FSPA rule that no stuck balls in MB matter. Play on always. Just make sure that is communicated that the beginning of the event.
