I don’t like obscene outbursts myself. But I would like to point out that the kids argument is probably a red herring. In this age of internet access, it is unlikely that I’d be able to come up with any word that kids aged eight or older haven’t heard thousands of times already. Quite possibly, many of them could teach me how to do worse
This doesn’t mean that it’s OK to misbehave at a tournament. The kids might well disapprove, but they can most likely deal with it; they aren’t made out of sugar.
You’re right in that I wouldn’t be worried much about the kids, it’s the parents and their expectations that I’d have concerns over. Some don’t care what their kids hear, others may be helicopter parents. The whole point is to try to avoid having people feeling uncomfortable at your event - make it enjoyable so that everyone comes back. If kids are present, best to err on the side of caution and try to keep things clean. OTOH running a tourney like a church service may also discourage attendance… it goes both ways.
Actually their are a couple pretty solid reasons for this but I don’t feel like being banned today so I’ll keep my mouth shut. But recognition of this is at least a step in the right direction…
And before you ask, “why do you stay then?” - I’ll answer it right now. I stay because I want to help with tech advise, rules knowledge and to provide my experiences to try and help better the community. I always seem to get caught up in these types of threads though because I’m passionate about people trying to tell me what I can and can’t do.
And that’s exactly why a lot of people are here - it’s a huge discussion with our future and we want to get it right. Honestly, thanks for the passion!
Getting back to this, the most organic way for the community to maintain itself is… the community itself. When I had my last nuclear moment where I hit a tipping point (IMaiden loss due to a slew of minor malfunctions, pure malfunction losses have been known to set me off), what was really reassuring with the Pittsburgh community was that I had essentially talked to/been reprimanded by 8-10 people before the TD even mentioned it’s occurrence/rightfully carded me…one week later. A caring community does much, much more good than a TD with a heavy hand.
Not saying we don’t need some kinda TD handling, but how can other places/people/TDs work towards a more positive community where this happens? I know some top players in Pittsburgh who went through phases in their growth and met the same thing, so it’s not a recent occurrence.
As a TD, I’m not trying to punish emotions. What I’m trying to curtail is misogyny and aggression.
If you swear loudly at my family-friendly tournament, I’m going to give you an unofficial warning to make sure you’re aware of the expectations for the event, but if you yell, “You stupid bitch!” at the machine, that’s a hard and fast yellow card.
I don’t want to get in the way of anyone’s fun, but I also want to foster a positive environment.
The heavy discussion has mostly been about what constitutes and what should be done to maintain a positive environment. Clearly there are different views about the degree that someone’s behaviour should be regulated for the comfort of others.
Hopefully we all have the same goal of making the community better, even if we can’t agree on how it should be done!
Ugh that statement sounds eerily familiar to one in sexism in pinball. Just like how being aware of what we say to others is something worth being conscious of, so is how we act.
I’ve been joking about this a bit at league but I’m thinking I really will get a cross stitch to hang up at the parlor that says “Own Your Drains.” Pinball is a game with an eventual end. Such is how it was designed. It is just a game though, and people are held responsible for their feelings reacting to a game. I’m not gonna invite the friend that flipped the monopoly board over back. I’m also not gonna be ok with people rage tilting so hard they lift a leg up.
If the boundaries of what’s acceptable and what’s unacceptable behavior alludes you, perhaps you should stay away from tournaments. Or, use your better judgement, play in tournaments and be graceful with a penalty card should you get one.
Largely I think this thread is here to help curb toxicity before it takes hold like it has in so many other hobbies. It’s not a witch hunt, please don’t treat it as such.
This thread is like Dennis Leary + the Gasden flag. It’s scary that there are so many people out there that can’t self-regulate their behavior for a few hours when they are out in public. It’s like Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty to shout expletives at the Bride of Pinbot in public, or give me death!”
Not so sure this is about misogyny as that is the hatred or prejudice towards Women. Don’t think one person here is arguing against that. This is fair enough, but I’d also expect the same if someone says, “Hey, don’t be a dick.” That seems to be wildly accepted but the “Don’t be a bitch” is scrutinized. Both have the same meaning but one is directed towards a male personality trait and the other a woman. Why is one acceptable and not the other (not trying to put words in your mouth, just providing an example which is represented on this forum often). Perfect example. I was moderated (not by you) for almost this same thing and yet the “Don’t be a dick” never was.
Again with the over the top examples. How many times does it have to be said for people to stop? THIS is not the behavior in question. It’s the random “Fuck”, “Bull Shit”, etc or slap to a lock bar that is in question.
Can we, as a group, please stop this crap? It’s not progressing the conversation and it makes us rehash the differences over and over…
I know you and completely respect the amount of control you have. It’s almost Elwin like. But let me throw this back. This is not a debate about if someone can “self control” themselves. This is a debate about if someone “should be forced” to self control. The people in this thread think everyone should be a robot with no emotion at all. That’s not reality in any sport. In any sport you will have your calm people and then you will have others whom wear that emotion on their sleeve. Showing some sign of frustration should be acceptable.
Shoot, in our group of local players I can only think of 3 to maybe 5 top tournament players that have your level of self control (Garret, You, Luke). All of the rest (wont name names as they may get offended) which is easily a dozen players do, at times say a curse word, slap the lockbar or shake a machine. All minor things but as this thread has progressed some of the potential TD’s have already said some of this would be yellow cards and even one said a straight red.
An example. Let’s say I decide to go and try to qualify for TPL this Sat. I get stuck on Star Wars Stern. I plunge the ball and it goes straight left outlane. The game autoplunges (because I’m to slow to react to short plunge) and it auto’s to the left outlane again. I will 90% chance say to that game, “That’s some Bull Shit right their.” I should be ALLOWED to let off some frustration while not creating a scene. To me, something like this should be acceptable in a competitive tournament with something real on the line. Obviously, shaking the machine, screaming at it, hitting it violently, donkey kicking it, etc wouldn’t be. What I’m trying to find is the clear line on what that would be. TD’s in this thread disagrees some will say yellow while others wont. Quite honestly, if I have to police myself to that level then I wont come to events anymore as I don’t feel like I should be walking on egg shells so that I don’t potentially offend someone else for something that is quite frankly, none of their business.
I’m sick of everyone falling back to the extreme cases, so here’s some personal experience as to why I’m backing @unsmith here:
I am a player who likes to be emotional and have FUN. Sometimes ill talk to a game, sing, make an action, etc. When I do so, I have FUN and things are positive. Bad drain? Shake a fist and say some ridiculous words. Taunt the game creatively. Acceptable behavior.
And yet, I take flak for this. Sure it’s a minority, but I have taken shit for having FUN. I’m a considerate guy, so i decided to tone things back out of respect for these folks. I’m not able to be myself, I have less FUN. Then, without a positive outlet to use, I revert to negative outlets. And then people give me justifiable flak for it.
Shit, nothing feels amazing like finally blowing up a game in qualifying, having FUN, and then hearing something that could be seen in certain lights as a threat for being proud of your work and being positive.
I don’t want to play pinball in a world where players feel justified by the rules to stifle and give me shit for having FUN, and there have been many times in this conversation that the tone has been leaning towards that.
He isn’t talking about sexism, or racism, or machine abuse, or machinegunning profanity. We all know those are bad. He’s making sure, and justifiably so given my personal experience, that we don’t smother the positive by reforming the negative.
Sorry if it comes off as a bit rant-y, but this is something I’m quite passionate about on a personal level.
I am all for this behavior too. Have fun. Show you’re having fun. Creating that positive vibe is contagious and others feed into it. At least I do. In my experience it makes the experience for everyone at the event more enjoyable.
Then please drill that point home. Right now, I can see people (not explicitly the TDs) feeling justified with pushing around people who act positively if they can’t handle a bit of action next to them.
Oh i do. Straight from the Pincinnati website and I say it with EVERY pre tournament speech.
“Taunt the game, talk to yourself, be lighthearted about it, but do not have these immature displays of negativity and outbursts of F bombs. It makes others uncomfortable and it is unsportsmanlike. ”
I guess I could add something like, “being positive, cheering on players, reacting positively to a great ball or game, will never be discouraged.”
I’m just going to say that a lot of onlookers at Cle Pin found it pretty awkward how often you were shouting and throwing your hat after draining in playoff games. I’m not suggesting that it should be a hard and fast punishable offense, but you definitely contributed to shifting the vibe in the room to something less FUN for the group as a whole.
There isn’t a single moment where I’m not having a blast. This involves the moments I’m yelling at myself, shaking games next to the one I’m playing, slamming my bottle of water against the leg of a game.
I may get away with some of that because of who I am . . . but I hope that most people understand and see that I’m no way acting out of rage, I’m not there to make anyone else truly uncomfortable or fear for their safety. I’m just there to enjoy the fact that my wife let me leave the nest for a couple of days to do the one thing in life I enjoy the most.
