WPPR formula change to v5.3 for 2017!

[haugstrup]

@SyracusePinball A while back Dave Stewart sent me a description of the process he uses. It may be useful for you: https://matchplay.events/tournaments/pingolf

[Snailman]

@pinwizj

Leagues CANNOT hold separate private tournaments for just their members.

If you’re holding side tournaments as part of your league nights, those tournaments should not have been endorsed by us.

You’re welcome to exploit this in a public setting by running a public tournament where anyone can play, but you cannot do this within a league for league members only.

Interesting.
I know in DFW area, they hold a separate side tourney at every single one of their league nights. Most, if not all, of those league nights are held at private residences where the address is not published. But to their credit, the events are openly published on IFPA site and Facebook, and open to anyone for participation so long as they contact the organizer and get the location address.

This seemed legit to me. But according to what you wrote, it actually is not?
Could you please clarify?

[pinwizj]

@Snailman

I know in DFW area, they hold a separate side tourney at every single one of their league nights. Most, if not all, of those league nights are held at private residences where the address is not published. But to their credit, the events are openly published on IFPA site and Facebook, and open to anyone for participation so long as they contact the organizer and get the location address.

This seemed legit to me. But according to what you wrote, it actually is not?
Could you please clarify?

I think this is with Louis hosting?

Him and I chatted on the phone to make sure everything was clear. The tournaments are posted on the IFPA tournament calendar, address is hidden (private) which is fine, and is open for anyone to participate by contacting the TD to register (including non-league members).

The inclusion of non-league members is the key here. You can’t just take the 30 guys that are showing up for league night, and run a bunch of other stuff that isn’t on the tournament calendar, or is limited to just those members. You are however welcome to run a league night at 4pm, and schedule a tournament on our calendar for 7pm where the league members can stay, and a bunch of strangers can show up to play (and steal your shit)

[jay]

I used straight IFPA 80/60/40/20 for the first season of our pingolf league and then switched it up slightly to try and bring the scores up some as I felt too many of the newer or less skilled players were getting 9s and 10s. All three seasons and 9 total rounds of results can be seen here. Be sure to scroll down for links to the older scoresheets.

[pinwizj]

Actually found the 2016 Pin-Masters par scores on my laptop:

Drop A Card - 2500
Fish Tales - 150,000,000
Demolition Man - 600,000,000
Evel Knievel - 120,000
Batman Dark Knight - 50,000,000
Volley - 70,000
Game of Thrones - 300,000,000
KISS (Bally) - 200,000
Metallica - 30,000,000

I feel like we lowered Batman and Metallica after round 1.

[gammagoat]

Welcome to 2017. How are best game leagues handling verification? Last season we used a buddy system, which apparently will not fly this year. I want to follow the rules, while not adding too much overhead. I guess we will just nominate a rediculously high percentage of official score keepers.

[chuckwurt]

If we start doing it, we would only allow scores to be entered two days a week when an approved TD will be there to verify scores.

[genex]

yeah i’ve heard of locations where people will just grab a worker and say “hey here’s the score I got” to validate it. But seems like that isn’t that much better than a selfie since people aren’t watching to make sure people aren’t death saving or even having someone else play a ball or game. Not sure if the TD or validator person has to watch the whole game?

[chuckwurt]

That’s what we wondered too. The only people that can validate the scores are myself and the owner of the bar who also actively participates. If we had to watch the whole game of each player to validate the score that probably won’t fly as that would be too hard to do if it’s a busy night.

[gammagoat]

To be clear, I wasn’t talking selfie league, I was talking a bi-weekly. We have TDs on site, but in the past people record their own score.

[pinwizj]

@genex

yeah i’ve heard of locations where people will just grab a worker and say “hey here’s the score I got” to validate it. But seems like that isn’t that much better than a selfie since people aren’t watching to make sure people aren’t death saving or even having someone else play a ball or game. Not sure if the TD or validator person has to watch the whole game?

The equivalent is that to a typical weekend tournament. So officials need to be around to not only validate and record a score, but if a player needs a ruling, that ruling can be handled on the spot between the player and the official.

Any sort of attempts to try and push something into the “verified” territory for activity that is clearly not intended to be that kind of activity we’ll sniff out.

Just ask yourself if that kind of officiating would be something you would expect at PAPA while qualifying is going on.

I know the shift that I’ve seen that can work is having specific qualifying times of the week, so it becomes a social gathering on Tuesday and Thursday nights from 6pm-9pm for “open qualifying”. That activity is all verified because the official is on hand during that period.

[Snailman]

@pinwizj

Just ask yourself if that kind of officiating would be something you would expect at PAPA while qualifying is going on.

So does this mean that public venues (such as Modern NYC, Pinballz, Cactus Jacks, Flippers, FGW, Level257, etc) cannot consider “best game” entries that are played by an individual as “verified,” simply because the player takes his/her score picture to the arcade worker to “verify” the score, when the worker had not been actively monitoring the games being played and nowhere within eyesight of the game being played?

[gdd]

@Snailman

So does this mean that public venues (such as Modern NYC, Pinballz, Cactus Jacks, Flippers, FGW, Level257, etc) cannot consider “best game” entries that are played by an individual as “verified,” simply because the player takes his/her score picture to the arcade worker to “verify” the score, when the worker had not been actively monitoring the games being played and nowhere within eyesight of the game being played?

PAPA does not actively monitor all games, but they do have someone available to make rulings at all times, and they do have someone verifying that the scores submitted are the scores on the game. Also, while not actively monitoring every game, there are people around who are observing that for instance the person submitting their name is the one playing the game, that the person doesn’t restart in the middle of an entry, etc. I would argue that Modern Pinball has this level of observation in place. Francesco is there at the booth when qualifying happens, he knows which players are in the middle of league entries, generally keeping an eye on things, and taking scores/making rulings as necessary.

This is different from a situation where the games are in a bar/restaurant with a bunch of employees who are not actively watching them, and whose main job is serving other customers. They can’t make rulings, they have no real concept of how the league works or what the rules are, and their ability to maintain the accuracy of these entries is limited.

This all seems pretty common sense to me.

[pinwizj]

This is where I type everything that Greg Dunlap just typed

[stevevt]

@heyrocker

that the person doesn’t restart in the middle of an entry, etc.

I like this rule a lot for my location and will be enforcing it (along with not playing a stuck ball advantage and similar) for my monthly ongoing events. However, I don’t see that the specific case of not allowing game restarts at Modern or other one-fee-free-play venues is a requirement of WPPR 5.3.

[genex]

Cool thanks for clarification - also for venues where we don’t have keys to the machines and we wanna do a “come by Tuesdays from 6-9 to play” kinda thing, as long as we’re there to make rulings it’s still OK?

Since we can’t do a “player must try to free stuck ball balanced on inlane/outlane post vs. TD has to put it in the outlane” type situation would the call be that the player just has to try and free it since if a TD does it without keys there’s not really a difference?

[gdd]

@stevevt

However, I don’t see that the specific case of not allowing game restarts at Modern or other one-fee-free-play venues is a requirement of WPPR 5.3.

No it totally isn’t, I was just commenting on the general level of observation that is expected.

[pinwizj]

@genex

Cool thanks for clarification - also for venues where we don’t have keys to the machines and we wanna do a “come by Tuesdays from 6-9 to play” kinda thing, as long as we’re there to make rulings it’s still OK?

Since we can’t do a “player must try to free stuck ball balanced on inlane/outlane post vs. TD has to put it in the outlane” type situation would the call be that the player just has to try and free it since if a TD does it without keys there’s not really a difference?

It’s totally fine. In some of the leagues/tournaments I’ve run in the past 20 years, a stuck ball on a game that you don’t have access to simply equals a “Catastrophic Malfunction”. So we would just follow those rules.

[Snailman]

@heyrocker

PAPA does not actively monitor all games, but they do have someone available to make rulings at all times, and they do have someone verifying that the scores submitted are the scores on the game. Also, while not actively monitoring every game, there are people around who are observing that for instance the person submitting their name is the one playing the game, that the person doesn’t restart in the middle of an entry, etc. I would argue that Modern Pinball has this level of observation in place. Francesco is there at the booth when qualifying happens, he knows which players are in the middle of league entries, generally keeping an eye on things, and taking scores/making rulings as necessary.

PAPA volunteers DO actively monitor all tourney games, to the extent that one scorekeeper monitors 4-6 pins at a time with nearly undivided attention. @pinwizj posed the threshold we should consider should be a “What would PAPA do?” I disagree with the position that an arcade attendant – whether knowledgeable about league or not – is spending enough of their time during their shift to even sniff at the level of attention that’s being provided by a PAPA volunteer. That’s not a slight on the arcade attendant. It’s simply reality that there are other functions required from an arcade attendant besides league game monitoring and scorekeeping (cashier, answering questions, registering people, greeting people, running a prize counter if applicable, etc).

I don’t disagree with you in wanting to be able to pull off the type of oversight/verification that you posed, because I, personally, think a “What would PAPA do?” threshold is too high of a bar. Expecting the same of a local venue as a world championship seems like a stretch.

What I am trying to do is get clarification. Because it seems that Josh has backed off using PAPA as the standard as well based on his agreement with you.

[GravitaR]

@Snailman

PAPA volunteers DO actively monitor all tourney games, to the extent that one scorekeeper monitors 4-6 pins at a time with nearly undivided attention.

In the “A” Papa bank the games are monitored very well by the staff and spectators since cameras/monitors are used. Hard to monitor any other division of play to the same extent unless an official is by the game. Papa volunteers do a hard job well.