We had a league match on WOZ where a player got a ball stuck behind the Winkie guard target during multiball. They proceeded to play for a while racking up some points, drained out, and then the ball search cleared the ball when it dropped the drop target.
Keefer and I were in the match, but not paying attention at all. The player that took advantage of the situation openly talked about taking advantage of the stuck ball similar to a Dirty Pool situation on AFM.
IMO this wasn’t the same sort of scenario but it was certainly an after-the-fact debatable thing. Personally the AFM situation is clarified as “Not a Stuck Ball” explicitly in the rules because this kind of situation is generally considered a stuck ball on other games.
Personally, I think any rule that allows single-ball multiball play is bs. I am 100% against the AFM dirty pool rule. Doubly so (200%) in light of the ridiculous you-must-drain-to-one-ball multiball-is-lost-sorry discussion we already had.
That being said, though, if you allow it for AFM, why don’t you allow it for WOZ or whatever else (Balrog I guess was mentioned). I thought exceptions were frowned upon.
Getting the ball stuck on AFM for the purpose of getting dirty pool is fine, but you should be required to get dirty pool ASAP. No shooting other jackpots when you could be bashing the middle. At least that is my view of things.
I’ve never felt particularly good about the Dirty Pool exception in the rules either, just because it opens up these kinds of discussions. Yeah, it is a shame to remove that piece of strategy from the game, but I also think its better to have the rules be really consistent and solid.
Reading back through the old rgp2 discussion on it, and you can enjoy both sides of the argument.
The software is designed for players to skillfully put the ball there in AFM, with a purpose of shooting it through if they choose to do so, blah blah, Pinbot you can skillfully put the ball in the shooter lane, but you HAVE to plunge it immediately, etc. 24 was mentioned for Suitcase multiball as normal game rules have you locking balls in the suitcase with the ability to play a ‘1 ball multiball’ at your leisure.
We can save the “Should Dirty Pool on AFM be considered a stuck ball or not” discussion to another thread.
The point I was trying to make is that per the current IFPAPA rules today, Dirty Pool for AFM is not considered a stuck ball, because it’s explicitly called out in the rules with its own paragraph. Every other game that isn’t AFM and this situation would be considered a stuck ball . . . including WOZ with the Winkie target IMO.
I had a stuck ball on WOZ this last league night as well. I did my best to dirty pool it into the VUK as quickly as I could.
DP in AFM is not trapped, it’s staged.
This might require it’s own thread but:
What about Tron’s Disc MB? I have had a couple games where I’ve dirty pooled on the last three shots leading up to the super jackpot. I’d assume it is the same ruling as WoZ since it isn’t explicitly called out but it is essentially the same setup as AFM.
Quick edit: I’ve also had times where the magnet of the machine + ball spin has unintentionally caused this scenario as well.
Based on the written rule as it stands today, anything that isn’t AFM is a stuck ball (for similar situations).
I’m sure if Keith implemented something on WOZ where he could sense the ball going into the VUK with the drop target in the up position, and put something in where it spotted a set of R-E-S-C-U-E letters, then there could be debate to adding a paragraph regarding this specific situation for WOZ.
Same thing with Tron. If Lyman adds something where a player has a risk/reward decision to make regarding cashing in on unsticking the ball, versus choosing not to do so, then additional one-off game exceptions will be added to the rules.
For now I believe AFM is the only game that offers this kind of opportunity. I would add Jack*Bot to the list, but I don’t think there’s a person alive that would be trying to actually shoot that stuck ball behind the visor to complete the grid for Mega Visor. Perhaps the next AFM update should be “Advance through the rest of the cities” if you Dirty Pool . . . then players might think twice about leaving that ball there
I agree with Taylor in regards to Dirty Pool. It’s not trapped, it’s staged.
For WoZ, it’s a flaw that has potential exploits. Getting the ball stuck there is no different than an air ball landing on a plastic during multiball, if you ask me. Yeah, playing might knock it back into play, but it’s still stuck, not staged/locked. To me it’s similar to a ball sitting in the shooter lane during multiball and the game isn’t trying to kick it out.
It’s staged because of a rule? There is literally no physical difference between AFM dirty pool ball and WOZ dirty winkie ball. Still a sketchy distinction.
Yeah, I think that the rule is the distinction, to be honest. One is a strategy that is part of the game’s rules, the other is a flaw in the game. Physically there is no distinction, no, but there is a big difference in the programming. Dirty Pool is 100% built into the game’s strategy, whereas Winkie lock, or whatever we want to call it, is not (or at least not by design).
I get that a good tournament player would try to make both happen, but at least AFM recognizes the possibility and has a rule to deal with the “problem.”
I would say a rule EXISTING does make this comparison not apples to apples.
You are welcome to consider the distinction “sketchy” but there’s something with Attack that is designed into the game specifically for this situation. It just so happens that the reward for cashing it in may not be as valuable as shooting for Jackpots.
Add a rule to WOZ and you can join the hallowed paragraphs of IFPAPA rule exceptions
sound like an opportunity to write in a rule for the winkie. How about a DP would award an extra virtual lock?
I recall scorekeeping in PAPA A where this occurred (maybe to Zack?) and ruling was “skilled play, play on”. I agree that software detecting the situation and offering a reward would make me feel better about that ruling.
Personally, I continue to be perplexed by the asymmetry of the rulings of most pinball events, all biased in the direction of “screw the player”.
Ball flies through the air, lands below the flippers -> "That’s pinball, sorry, sucks to be you."
Ball flies through the air, lands behind a drop target -> “OMG you’re cheeeeaaattttingggg!”
I’ve had tournament games where a ball got stuck during multiball and at first I used to get really stressed about it. Didn’t want to be accused of exploiting the game, playing a 1 ball multiball, etc. So I would try to trap up with the other 2 balls and call over a TD or tech to take the glass off. When I go back into playing, often times the multiball only lasts another few shots. And if I don’t get to that solution, it means I tried to trap up and drained because of it, but still have to get that ball unstuck. My new solution is to shoot at the trapped ball if it’s possible to unstick. But it’s a shitty situation to be in. You just want to play an honest multiball!
Is the drop suppose to lower in the ball search on WOZ? Just had a ball stuck behind the Winkie and the drop never lowered to clear it.