Yes, please. I think their is a good conversation to have about this.
For me I fall into the:
League - Coach away, just not while the player is actively playing as it slows things down way to much.
Tournament - Once the first ball is plunged, I actually don’t feel that coaching should be allowed, especially by any players in the group. Pinball is a game of skill but it is also very much a game of knowledge and strategy. You can get the basics from a lot of sources but some strategy is learned. If a player doesn’t know the best way to take that strategy and get the best score from it that is part of their “skill” of the game and I don’t feel it is fair for the other players to tell them, “hey, be sure to stack that mode in with this MB or you will miss out on a bunch of points” type of things.
I’m all for coaching up until the point of the game starting as you will mainly be sharing game knowledge but when we get into situational knowledge is where I think that line gets fuzzy. In tournaments now, their is real money on the table as well as qualifying points for things like the Stern Tour, which to me, changes the situation a little bit.
Underrated comment, especially in today’s production environment. If you don’t know how to effectively exploit playfield/shot multipliers or stack multiballs, or build up risk/reward shots, etc., you have almost no chance against top players on a modern game no matter how well you are shooting.
There are exceptions of course (TNA is a very simple game but difficult to master) but for just about anything manufactured in the past 5 years or so, you had better come into it with at least a basic strategy or you’re toast.
I got scolded by a player at a Cbar event in December for telling my wife — who participates maybe five tournaments a year — between balls how to get the mini-deadpool multiball in deadpool, all while head-to-head competitors were talking about their strategies on two or three games. He happened to be close to losing and they were replaying a game after a major malfunction caused them to restart one he had been blowing up, and he really made me feel like I could be DQ’ed from the whole tournament for saying anything.
I mention this in this thread because this is the first I’ve heard of this misinterpretation (I’d assumed no coaching at any point) and the opponent — who used to play more frequently than now — really went to town on me for this. It reminds me that even regulars may need an occasional reminder that, hey, if you have an issue, check with a TD first before trying to enforce the rules yourself.
Or maybe it was the person believing that the players were being loud and talking to the point where it would have been influencing or being heard by the player who was playing?
Some people carry conversations ‘off game’ that are so loud they are within clear ear-shot of the player. This is distracting and maybe someone was construing this to potentially be advantageous to the player on the game.
Talking about what the player is doing or not too within ear shot is rude too IMO
Only if they were telling the player who was currently playing their ball.
The intention is to make it clear that its not just the immediate players that are bound by this limitation on coaching the live player - not to change the scope of who is allowed to be coached or not.
It’s really easy… only the person who has engaged the machine and currently playing their ball is limited from being coached.
Definitely some gray area here with broadcast booths that are near the players. I can ignore all sorts of surrounding noise and chatter, but when I can hear live commentary on my game it shifts my focus.
well it’s the reason we try to move the booths AWAY from the immediate play Of course now we are seeing live commentary on the PA… so its shifting to players needing their own isolation if they care for it.
But I think the comment stands for all avenues of play
Save it for when you are busting the balls of the player and they are your friend
Not always. As a veteran player in league, if I’m blowing up a game, I don’t mind comments from the peanut gallery. They can be both amusing and motivating. ‘You gonna collect that super JP some time tonight?’
Where it becomes a problem is with newer players. I had a player tell me he would never come back to league because another player was talking to him while he was playing. I think many of us forget just how intimidated we were when we started competing or first joined a league. Give the noobs attaboys after a good ball, but leave them alone when they’re playing.
Definitely not allowed at places like pinburgh (pretty sure). But it’s pretty commonplace at the NKY and cincy tournaments to do that. We’re more casual on that front. No ones really complained, so we just left it as is. No repercussions.
Technically that is coaching but most places often have exceptions for that though I’ve seen some people mad about someone saying that at Pinburgh before…
Great discussion. May I offer an additional point to consider?
Beyond the question of whether coaching is legal, it is important to understand whether your advice is actually wanted, particularly if it is unsolicited. Tact is vital.
Volunteering unsolicited information to another player may be coming from a kind, selfless place in your heart, but consider how the other person may interpret it. While most players welcome every hint they can get, some can see coaching as condescending, arrogant or sexist.
As someone who hates beating someone because of better rules knowledge, I’ve stumbled in this area several times. Through trial and error, I developed a few guidelines for myself which have served me well…
(1) Before offering any unsolicited advice, engage the person to try to feel out whether they are struggling with the rules or just aren’t playing well today.
(2) Ask before offering advice.
(3) Just because you don’t recognize someone, don’t assume they aren’t a world-class player.
(4) Be prepared to offer everyone information equally, whether they are a rookie or a world champion.
(5) If you’re a man, be mindful of gender dynamics to avoid the perception that you are “mansplaining”. [This is particularly risky if you just explained something to a male player a few minutes earlier and are still in “helpful” mode. Remember that she may not have witnessed the previous exchange.]
(6) Be particularly tactful if the person is your direct competitor. It can feel weird to get advice from someone who then beats you anyway.
(7) If, despite following these guidelines, the person is offended, don’t get defensive. Just give a quick apology and move on.
I can’t claim to have completely figured this out myself yet, but perhaps these ideas can be helpful. I’m interested in others’ ideas, too.
When people shout out to a player walking away about a ball save or frantically try to prevent a person from touching the game to prevent them from playing out of turn, I view that as people showing kindness and excellent sportsmanship.
It is a shame that both actions are technically considered breaking the rules, because what it has done from my perspective is create and increasing number of “Gladys Kravitz” types who are hawking and snooping over matches just waiting (more like secretly hoping) for someone to make an error so they can claim a win by giving someone else a DQ on the match via a technicality, rather than winning by skillful (or even lucky) play.
Yes I understand there are certain potential collusion scenarios and butterfly wing flapping effects of who wins/advances but that’s not my point.
Players being compassionate in those 2 scenarios should not be a “violation”.
I always thought that you could say anything to a player as they are walking up to a game. “It’s your turn”, “it’s not your turn”. It’s always on the player to know if what that other person is saying is true.
The latter though I agree. All that is good sportsmanship. If you’re wrong, so what? Still no possibility of a DQ.
I don’t understand why people think that preventing someone from playing out of turn is against the rules. Even if you want to consider that coaching, if the person is about to plunge a ball that isn’t theirs then it cannot possibly be their turn. Therefore coaching is permitted.
Since it isn’t against the rules, is it some gross violation of sportsmanship? I’d say the opposite. Knowingly allowing someone to plunge when it isn’t their turn seems to be unsportsmanlike.
Yelling out about a ball save directly benefits the current player during their turn. This is coaching and isn’t permitted by the rules since it has to occur during the player’s turn.
I agree, but what, if anything can be done when it comes from a spectator and not a player actively in the match? This seemed to occur at INDISC finals(can’t remember if it was main or high stakes) and @cayle was visibly upset.
“Spectators and other players must refrain from commenting on play in a way that affects the current game”
This line doesn’t say a thing about ‘the player currently up at the machine’ - it just says affects the current game. I would interpret that to mean at any time during the current game.
