Toxic Behavior Continues in 2019

[joe]

@michi

At least here in Australia, I see more and more pubs and nightclub venues that prominently display signs about sexual harassment. (Often on the front door, and often in the bathrooms where (at least men) cannot help but see them.) The typically say something like “We do not tolerate any kind of gender, racist, or other forms of discrimination. If you feel harassed in any way, please talk to a staff member immediately, and we will take steps to help resolve the situation.”

I see no reason why TD’s can’t do the same thing at the start of a tournament. If the rules are clear, it’s my choice to comply or, if I don’t like them, not to participate.

IMHO: the challenge is that we’re now asking TD’s (or pub owners, in your description) to administer societal behaviors that should be de facto standards… and even worse, some people blame the TD’s if they didn’t explicitly address every possible infraction.

So for example, some people want pinball TD’s to give a speech at the start of their events decrying behaviors that aren’t considered acceptable at the tournament. If I’m the TD, how far do I have to take this? For many people, it’s simply assumed that “gender, racist, or other forms of discrimination” are unacceptable, that goes without saying… but that’s not necessarily true for everyone. What about religion? Most people would never consider degrading their opponent because they were wearing a cross, or a yarmulke, or a hijab… but that’s not necessarily true for everyone. Heck, most people would never consider punching their opponent in the face if they lost… but that’s not necessarily true for everyone. So as a TD, am I required to give a two hour speech detailing every possible behavior I can think of that’s unacceptable at my event? If not, where do I draw the line? Personally, I’d prefer to say “Hey, we’re playing pinball, everyone smile and have fun and treat everyone around you with love”, but some people would consider that insufficient.

[michi]

@joe

the challenge is that we’re now asking TD’s (or pub owners, in your description) to administer societal behaviors that should be de facto standards…

Yes. I’m worried about that aspect too. There is a fine line between pinball tournaments maintaining appropriate standards, and pinball tournaments forcing the TD’s belief system onto participants.

@joe

So for example, some people want pinball TD’s to give a speech at the start of their events decrying behaviors that aren’t considered acceptable at the tournament. If I’m the TD, how far do I have to take this?

I hear you, and I acknowledge the issue. On the other hand, I’ve seen a TD simply say: “Guys, we are a gender-neutral, ethnicity-neutral, and generally harassment-free venue here. Keep that in mind. If I find you harassing people, I will remove you from the tournament without warning, and will be happy to explain to you afterwards why I did it.”

So far, that’s worked every time.

To be honest, as much as I despise sexual or ethnic harassment at tournaments, in my experience, this rarely is a problem. What is a problem (at least in Australia) are competitors who drink so much that they are barely able to stand upright any longer.

To me, that is far more frequent than harassment, and equally detestable. The yelling, the uncontrolled outbursts, the swearing and incoherent remarks, and all the generally negative things that go along with someone being drunk.

In this forum, there has been much emphasis on lambasting sexual harassment, swearing, kicking chairs, machine abuse, and so on. But, interestingly, here as much as in Australia, I nary hear a word spoken about people being drunk.

I’m not suggesting that pinball tournaments should be alcohol-free. (I don’t think that they need to be.) At the same time, I’m bemused by society’s tolerance for alcohol abuse when everyone seems to be ready to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to sexism, racism, religious discrimination, abuse of drugs other than alcohol, etc.

Double standards?

[YeOldPinPlayer]

@michi

I nary hear a word spoken about people being drunk.

Because the bad behavior gets addressed not things that contribute to making bad behavior more likely.
If you vomit and pass out on the machine it’s not the drunkenness I care about, it’s the vomiting and passing out on the machine.

[michi]

@YeOldPinPlayer

If you vomit and pass out on the machine it’s not the drunkenness I care about, it’s the vomiting and passing out on the machine.

Interesting observation

I’m not so worried about vomiting and passing out on the machine; that’s something I’ve never seen happen. What I am worried about is all the things that are said (shouted) and done before the vomiting and passing out actually happen…

[ZenTron]

We (the pinball community) need to be proactive in alerting players and/or TD’s about bad behavior as it occurs in an event. It should be done respectfully (take the player to the side etc…) . This rehabilitation process may influence this persons behavior outside of our community and into their personal life. This is a win for everyone.

For an intro speech regarding conduct, last Saturday I actually forgot to mention it. In general I now say something like “Before we begin I ask that you are respectful to each other and to the machines, now lets start!”

[gdd]

Yesterday I was playing in a tournament on the accursed Star Wars, wherein I had an awful game with almost no flips, and ended up taking last in a four player group by 500K points. After the bonus counted up, I screamed and obscenity and stomped off to cool down before the next round began.

Later in the day, a woman in my group, a newer player who had only been involved in the tournament scene for about a year, pulled me aside and told me that was the most unsportsmanlike thing she had seen since she started playing, and she wanted me to know that she thought it was awful. And you know what? She was right. I mean, Ive certainly seen more unsportsmanlike things, but it was awful, and I was really glad she called me out for it. I thanked her and apologized and I think we left things on good terms, and it left me with a really important reminded that this is only pinball, and the last thing I want to do is leave a new player with a shitty impression of our community.

I would love to see more incidents handled this way. If you have a problem with someone’s behavior, just talk to them. I realize it is hard, and depending on the personalities involved I know that in many cases its not as easy as it was in this one. However we are also all (mostly) adults, and much of the day to day stuff we’re talking about in this thread could be handled pretty well in this way. Not all of them, if someone is being harassed or targeted personally then the situation is way different, but most of the stuff we’re talking about here is not that type of problem.

[ectobar]

I’m glad things worked out for you but I don’t think you did anything unsportsmanlike. Maybe if you were directing the obscenity towards the other players but it doesn’t seem like that’s the case.

[mrboboto]

Y’all keep missing the point here, which is that there is no objective definition of many of these things. So you argue about whether this particular example or that particular example meets your definition. I think gdd’s example was great in two different ways. One, I think it’s great when people do call each other out on this. But way more importantly- I think it’s great when people stop and actually listen to what the other person is saying. Notice that gdd didn’t jump into a definition of what sportsmanlike is or whatever. He apologized, tried to learn from it, and moved on. Because it actually did not matter what his own definition was. He assumed this other person had their own definition for their own reasons, it sounds like.

That’s the entire point. TDs can help facilitate those moments, and we can step in when they don’t happen, but everything should point in that direction.

[flynnibus]

@mrboboto

Because it actually did not matter what his own definition was. He assumed this other person had their own definition for their own reasons, it sounds like.

Or in retrospective he simply agreed his behavior was uncalled for and inappropriate.

Big difference between that… and blindly accepting anyone else’s boundaries or definitions. Because we know that leads to extremes trying to move the center.

[85vett]

@flynnibus

@mrboboto

Because it actually did not matter what his own definition was. He assumed this other person had their own definition for their own reasons, it sounds like.

Or in retrospective he simply agreed his behavior was uncalled for and inappropriate.

Big difference between that… and blindly accepting anyone else’s boundaries or definitions. Because we know that leads to extremes trying to move the center.

Exactly as he apparently felt his actions were inappropriate. If the same occurred to me, my response would be, “I’m sorry that you were offended.” and I would move on. I’m not going to have a conversation about it. It’s not my belief that is offensive or “unsportsmanlike” like. They blew off steam, didn’t direct anything at any one individual or provoke violence towards the game, venue or person.

You know what is unsportsmanlike that I see EVERY event I go to that goes by without yellow cards or conversations most of the time. Not being ready at the machine when it is your time. Why is him saying a curse word and storming off after his game something to appoligize about but having to be chased down to play your turn not at the same level?

@michi

I’m not suggesting that pinball tournaments should be alcohol-free. (I don’t think that they need to be.) At the same time, I’m bemused by society’s tolerance for alcohol abuse when everyone seems to be ready to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to sexism, racism, religious discrimination, abuse of drugs other than alcohol, etc.

Double standards?

Let’s talk double standards. Sexism seems to be a common one the community wont tolerate for which I 100% agree to. So, how about women’s tournaments, leagues and finals. Yes, I know this isn’t going to be a popular comment but it needs to be said to show the double standards that we bring on ourselves. Their is nothing in pinball that makes a man better than a woman. In actually women tend to have better reaction times so one could argue the advantage goes to the women. Some may argue strength to move a machine but in a properly set up game a large man all the way down to a 10 year old child could tilt the game (my 9 year old daughter can and she weighs 45 pounds) so I don’t consider that an "advantage. Under this premise isn’t having women only finals not sexism by definition? Or women only leagues and tournaments? Most would agree that if it was men only that would be offensive, right? How about (fill in the race) only events. That would be offensive, so why the double standards when their doesn’t need to be a distinction as everyone has the same ability to succeed regardless of race, sex, religion, etc.

Sexism - “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, on the basis of sex.”

Yes, I know why we have them, for which I’m generally OK with, except when the pot for those finals comes from the main pot (I shouldn’t pay into something I can’t participate into) but this goes deeper into what we are talking about. Just as you may feel that me saying S*&^T or F&^%K is offensive, the above can be offensive to people as well. So, why the double standard?

[SAFBrian]

@85vett

Sexism - “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, on the basis of sex.

I’m just going to say that if you google the word sexism you get, “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.”

Which it seems like you purposely removed the typically against women, which kind of proves the whole point of why there should be women’s leagues and tournaments.

[YeOldPinPlayer]

@85vett

when their doesn’t need to be a distinction

The distinction is there to encourage more women to play. We don’t have a problem with a low percentage of men playing. I agree sex gives no competitive advantage.

[85vett]

@SAFBrian

@85vett

Sexism - “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, on the basis of sex.

I’m just going to say that if you google the word sexism you get, “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.”

Which it seems like you purposely removed the typically against women, which kind of proves the whole point of why there should be women’s leagues and tournaments.

Yes, I removed it because it’s “typically” against women. Not fully, 100%. Which actually proves my point even more.

It’s like the word Racism. Their is no such thing as reverse racism (though many believe their is and use it), their is just racism. Just like sexism. It’s goes, well I would say, both ways but in it can be used against trans as well. Sexism is the difference of treatment towards a specific sex.

Wanted to add, this isn’t about sexual harassment which is also often times confused with sexism. Those are very different.

[85vett]

@YeOldPinPlayer

@85vett

when their doesn’t need to be a distinction

The distinction is there to encourage more women to play. We don’t have a problem with a low percentage of men playing. I agree sex gives no competitive advantage.

Fully agree and understand that portion. That is why I mentioned I know why it is their. But in truth it is a double standard when the rules state someone will not tolerate sexism but they have separate finals for women.

I really don’t have an issue with it but it was the best example I could think of on how peoples differences in beliefs change things drastically and why we shouldn’t be posing to change someones beliefs unless we really plan on following that line by the letter of the law. It’s that line of when is your rights more important than mine type of conversation I was getting at.

But let me add this. What is the % of women in pinball. Now what is the % of specific minorities. I think that is a greater problem in pinball that needs to be solved as well. So why not finals for subsets of minorities to drive in more diversity in the sport? That would be racist though, right (I feel it would be seen that way)? So, why isn’t the same considered sexist is my point.

[jdelz]

[pinwizj]

@85vett

So why not finals for subsets of minorities to drive in more diversity in the sport?

No other subset has asked.

Women have asked and as far as the IFPA goes that was enough for us to do something about it.

Back in the old PAPA days my dad and Steve ran a college division to highlight that subset.

[85vett]

Good to know. Topic of double standards came up which made me think this was a good time for that conversation. Maybe wrong time or place but it’s still something that is an interesting conversation. For women, I fully understand it’s their to drive more women to the sport, which is great. I just always thought pinball was cool in the fact that it’s one of the few sports out their to where everyone is on the same playing field and that we could all play together in.

[Butterflygirl24]

I agree with you to a point…I was/am an advocate for Women’s tournaments or Women’s divisions at big tournaments. I was one of the first to try to get PAPA to have a women’s division as a way to encourage more women to play, not to separate women and men. I saw women come with their husbands or BF and not really have anything to do while they were playing but yet they were not quite comfortable enough to play in a division…I talked to Kevin and Mark way back then and told them that it wasn’t to separate but to encourage more players. It would be just like the senior or junior division and played one the same bank. Then once they had a few women’s events they would feel more comfortable in one of the main division.
Since then it has gone a bit overboard IMO. I can see some women’s leagues and women’s divisions at the bigger tournaments…I know the IFPA now has the Women’s championships so there are Women’s only tourneys to determine who competes but that doesn’t mean that there needs to be a Women’s only tournament every weekend why not just use the women’s standings from the tournaments/events that each woman competes in no matter if it is “women’s only” or not.

Phoebe

[gdd]

@85vett

Fully agree and understand that portion. That is why I mentioned I know why it is their. But in truth it is a double standard when the rules state someone will not tolerate sexism but they have separate finals for women.

Women’s events exists because for … ever … women have been driven from the sport by the sexist and aggressive behavior of men. Having women’s only events allows them to define their own space, which enables the base of female players to grow and start moving towards equity in the sport and raising awareness of these issues. It is not a double-standard, and it is not sexist, because you can’t be sexist against men.

*ism exists against oppressed and minority classes. When used against the majority/oppressor class, that is not *ism, it is the implementation of justice and a move towards equity. I will not debate this point. That is the stance of this forum and our code of conduct. Anyone who wants to fight about that can take it elsewhere or do their own reading. It isn’t my job to educate you.

@85vett

I really don’t have an issue with it but it was the best example I could think of on how peoples differences in beliefs change things drastically and why we shouldn’t be posing to change someones beliefs unless we really plan on following that line by the letter of the law. It’s that line of when is your rights more important than mine type of conversation I was getting at.

I don’t think anyone is trying to change anyone’s beliefs. Honestly I give zero about what you do or don’t believe. What I do care about is the rules and attitudes that exist in the spaces I create and run (like the tournaments I run and this forum.) If you want to participate in those you abide by those rules. There are plenty of forums like Pinside that I don’t participate in precisely because they don’t implement those rules. You want a space where people are free to scream and swear, not shake opponents hands, and get yellow cards for not being ready? Go nuts! I won’t attend but I’m sure lots of people will. The fact is, any implementation of any rules (including a lack of rules at all) makes someone unhappy and will gain you some people and lose you others. The real question when setting up communities is who do you want to empower and who do you want to surround yourself with? This was the number one question I asked when I setup this forum, and it is key to everything I decide to run or take ownership of in any way. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

This thread is now locked.