What happened at the end of the women's NW finals?


Apologies to Megan. I saw Tommy’s name on the IFPA tourney.


In Buffalo for round 1 of finals, the top seed was given game choice, as well as, position choice. It’s unlikely that had anything to do with that persons suggestion. However, considering it was the major event occurring right before NW and was streamed, there is some chance. Anyone picking second in round 1 of finals in Buffalo had pretty much no chance of playing last. I was the low seed and had to play 1st. Again, no idea if that played any role at all in what happened. I’m merely giving it as an example of how someone who made the comment may have not been trying to insult anyone.

Btw, my preference is going 3rd instead of 4th if given the option as well. I have found it just works better for me.


You are correct that there are non-sexist reasons a person might make a statement that is ultimately perceived as sexist. The issue is not one of intent, which is why I’ve been super focused on actions in this conversation. There are certain actions that are culturally loaded because of the sexist history behind them, and questioning whether a woman knows what she’s doing during the picking stages is one of them. The optimal outcome is to be aware of these loaded actions and avoid them regardless of your beliefs about gender or sexism, knowing that avoiding these things is no skin off your teeth and has the added benefit of making other people feel more comfortable in your scene.

Edited to add: Actually, just go read COW’s post in the Sexism in Pinball thread, he says what I’m saying with more examples.


While I have very limited experience in running events, I did help out in the finals last year with Pinball Showdown in Denver. Part of my duties was asking players in a group their choice of order. While I don’t explicitly remember if I used the same exact wording, I read this as individual making sure that the player is aware that 4th position is available to be taken. In addition, I’ve been around group order selection enough to hear the same re-affirmation happen in cases where first choice person does not pick “best” position. No gender stereotyping involved as they were all male groups consisting of veterans of the sport.


Re-affirmation is "To confirm, you said third?“
it’s not
"You know you can choose to go fourth, right?”


Exactly. In fact I don’t even pose it as a question. I just say “Player X chooses Y.” There’s another reason for this, which is that in most major tournaments once a verbal decision has been made, it is not reversible. This isn’t a part of the IFPAPA combined rule set, since it is a somewhat format-dependent thing, however I know for instance IFPA has this verbiage in all their tournaments. So in that situation there isn’t even a question or confirmation. It is simply a statement.


I believe to avoid getting stuck in that question quagmire and to help people who aren’t hawking over the turn order sheet, the lead-up listing of the positions available also helps. “Aleksander, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd?” “Walt, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?” “Jon, game or order?” and so on. If you list the positions out first, you only really have to confirm with “Aleksander chooses 3rd” as a follow-up. That person made their decision.


Yes, this is exactly the script I use.

“John would you like to choose game or position?”
[player says Paragon]
“John has chosen Paragon.”
“Jane would you like to go 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th on Paragon?”
[player says 4th]
“Jane chooses 4th. Jim would you like 1st, 2nd or 3rd on Paragon?”
[player says 2nd]
"Jim chooses 2nd."

Always be as explicit as humanly possible, and always give the players exactly the information they need to make a decision. This is the way I’ve always seen the PAPA staff do it, and if its good enough for them then its good enough for me.


This is part of the combined rule set used at IFPA, PAPA, and Pinburgh. “Once a player verbally announces their game choice, or chooses position, that decision cannot be changed.”


Exactly. There’s no script, but if I had to make one I’d basically make this script. And you hit the important parts just right: be explicit, give all the information, and otherwise stay out of the way…


And in any case, is not “You know you can go fourth” considered coaching, which is not allowed? Or am i mistaken?


Coaching is only disallowed during a game, which I think is interpreted at players turn, player at machine. Although a tournament official should probably avoid any coaching even outside of game for fairness.

Because the tournament divisions consist solely of singles play, coaching of any player during a game, in any round, is not allowed. An exception is provided for Juniors play; Juniors players may have no more than one coach during their qualifying and final rounds of play. If a non-Junior player specifically requests advice on a game feature during play, his or her question may be addressed only by a tournament official, and answered only in terms of whether or not the machine is functioning correctly. Non-Junior players are not to seek assistance from other players or spectators. Informing player 1 too many or too few games have been entered into the machine will not be penalized as coaching.


You stand corrected, the women’s tournament is now on the Friday. Was changed today”

I feel like this was overlooked a bit. By appearances there was an issue at one tournament and less than a week later another tournament makes changes to avoid the same issue.

This is exactly the outcome we would hope for.

People know what they are doing, in this case large tournament organizers, and given information and opportunity will make the right decisions. I expect many players and other people in the pinball world will do the same.


Pete already posted it, but our SFGE schedule worked well for us and seemed to work well for all that participated. It required changing finals dates and times but nonetheless gave everyone consideration. However it went down, it’s sad to hear such sour experiences happen but it’s heartening to hear that taking care of a friend rises above a game. It’s a good reminder.


Masses are always breeding grounds of psychic epidemics - Carl Jung


@shimoda @LOTR_breath @ZenTron IT’S CALLED PINVASION :wink:

I had a great team to work with and we tried to make sure everything was planned equally for everyone.