If it’s a lazarus (as it was here, imo) then aren’t you allowed to move the machine?
I seem to recall this discussion in another thread – don’t have time to search. But one key element to this is at what point is it a “drain” down the outlane that you can no longer move the machine – because you have TX-Sector, WOZ, JJPOTC, etc that have potential skillful nudges to save your ball, by design, after it’s already past the post separating the outlane from the inlane.
Further, if we go all strict on this, then any rage tilt/dangers also now face the same consequences?
I think a rage tilt/danger could be a DQ-able offense under current rules
Section 9, Player Errors: “Any player who deliberately tilts or slam tilts a machine in order to derive some benefit to his or her own play, or the play of others, under these rules, will receive a score of zero.”
If that rage tilt is used to get a feel for the tilt sensitivity, is that “benefit”?
My point was toward “and you move the machine at all…”
And dangers and tilts being an obvious tangible way to determine if someone had moved the machine at all.
The rule you quoted is for a different aspect – not in trying to save the ball.
In the section you reference, it’s simple… TD: “Did you try to derive some benefit for yourself or others in rage tilting?”
Player: “No.”
No consequence given.
If the TD decides that rage tilting is unsportsmanlike, then that’s a different rule application.
Thanks, @zvrabes!!
To the OP and everyone else, if you’re looking to align with @pinwizj and @PAPA_Doug on this “Was this a death save?” ruling, see this link to post #17: Gottlieb Trough Post Save - #17 by pinwizj
Pertinent quote from Josh after consulting with Doug: “Outlane drains are not allowed to be actively saved from a center post. If it goes down an outlane and the player actively tries to nudge it back into play, then it is a death save.”
I would say the same applies to aprons to get the ball back up between the flippers, whether you raise a flipper or not.
Back to the instance that started this post, if the TD didn’t witness the nudge to get it back in play, and the player says they didn’t actively try to nudge it back into play, then play on. I wouldn’t use video review.
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#LegalizeDeathSaves
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I said this back in November of last year, and I still believe it:
“My biggest personal argument against death saves is that unless you have the ability for the game to make a 360 degree turn all the way around, you will run into games being slid into other games, other people, walls, etc. Since the game is always slid to the right there’s no going back. That leads to interference issues, delay of game issues, games becoming unlevel, etc.”
YMMV as a TD of wanting to deal with these kinds of issues. No thanks for events that I run.
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Right exactly. So it quickly gets really complicated what you can do, when you can do it, etc.
Just set the tilt accordingly and let that decide, I say. If you make the move non-survivable it sort of takes care of itself.
I’ve always thought of a Lazarus as one that drains through the flippers, and returns back through the flippers. I guess it could apply to a power outlane as well. But to your question - my understanding is that it’s out of bounds to try to induce the ball back into play “once it has drained.” If it’s on its way back up through the flippers and you nudge-bat it away on a reflex, no problem there as far as I’m concerned.
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Need to make an exception for WOZ. On a left outlane, it is very possible to hold up the left flipper and nudge the game to get action from the popbumper, with the hope the last kick fires the ball out to the right, off the top of the center post and back into play. Has happened twice to me, and certainly not a deathsave or bangback. No movement of the machine outside of pop-nudging.
Don’t worry, any tournament worth it’s salt has the center post pulled 
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Agreed on both. At Clepin classics, I had Stingray power outlane hard enough that the game performed a self-bangback. I sat there hands at my side and head down looking dejected when all of a sudden the ball banks up onto my flipper! Weird things happen in pinball and we have to keep those in account (as long as they’re legal).
what if a ball drains out the right outlane quickly (or even a middle drain) and is moving up the left side of the drain towards a kickback? I’ve seen those hit the kickback and fire back into play. That’s legal right?
Though if the player tries to slide the machine to the right to get it to reach the kickback that would be illegal?
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Never seen a rule-set address a death-kick.
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This happened Monday night once where I was able to upward nudge the drained ball from the right outlane to tickle the kickback switch on DE Star Wars. It tilted, but if it didn’t tilt I’m guessing I would have been DQ’d anyway
The video doesn’t tell you enough to rule a drath save. One it’s “on the cheap” home made twitch steaming so good luck with the alignment Of images and even so on two camera angles the game appears not to move at all.
Bingo. Deliberate player action. It’s on him that he coincidentally makes a move at the precise time that the ball smacks into the metal. We don’t know if it would have lazereth’d without his movement. The point is he made a move, he tried, at precisely the right time for it to affect the ball’s path. His left shoulder (and footage of the playfield) make a marked move. Deliberate cheating or just a deliberate foolish move, he made the choice, and I would DQ in any similar circumstances.
All that from a limited-view potentially out-of-sync video feed? Brutal.
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Wouldn’t this all be far simpler if we set machines to appropriate tilt levels and just let people play, instead of (over)analyzing recorded video after the fact? The more I see this topic (and similar) the more I’m inclined to feel like the player should be able to play until they tilt or the ball is actually in the trough.
If there’s a fear that that will encourage people to take a shot “just in case,” then engaged TDs can spot moves in real time and give warnings for egregious efforts.
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Indeed, @unsmith. I’ve never understood why so many people are opposed to letting the machine be the judge, jury, and executioner… I mean, that’s what these games are designed to do. Unless there’s an actual malfunction (and I don’t think anyone is arguing there was a malfunction in this instance) or blatant cheating (I’m thinking “rare earth magnet” territory)… roll with whatever happens. That’s pinball.