TGP calculation help

OK about to run our 1st “super selfie league playoffs”. Let me know if this is correct (I’m still learning so I could be WAYYYYY off):

We will have 9 players using ladder format (2 eliminated per round)

5 qualifying games = 5 TGP
round 1: 4 player match on 3 games = 3 TGP x2 = 6 TGP
round 2: 4 player match on 3 games = 3 TGP x2 = 6 TGP
final round 3: 3 player match on 3 games = 3 TGP x1.5 = 4.5 TGP

Total TGP = 21.5

20% bonus for the venue being open for 300 hours (roughly) in the month = 4.3 TGP

Final total TGP = 21.5 + 4.3 = 25.8

That is NOT correct :slight_smile:

It’s no longer “longest path” so your ladder format doesn’t get to count each round in full.

Out TGP Guide lays out the value for the ladder format:

4 player groups, 2 players eliminated per round until final 4 players remain (assumes 1 game for final 4) (receives 2X bonus for 4-player games)

  • 4 players –> 2 games towards TGP
  • 5-6 players –> 3 games towards TGP
  • 7-64 players –> 4 games towards TGP

So assuming you have at least 18 participants, here’s the breakdown:

5 qualifying games
4 finals games

9 games total for TGP

+the 20 hours of unlimited qualifying.

Total would be 36% + 20% = 56% TGP for the event

Thanks Josh. I suspected I might be WAYYYYY off lol. Side note…was up at 5am for some stupid reason and listened to WWOP and it was great. Loved it!

How does the formula change if all rounds are 3 games (including final 4)?

And how does the formula change if all rounds are just one game but the final 4 play all 5 games?

I will figure this all out sooner or later :slight_smile: Likely just as V5.3 kicks in :blush:

Meaningful games played is 11 instead of 4 for the finals.

The ‘common format’ that’s on the TGP Guide is based on a 1 game final 4 match, so this would be 4 additional games for the finalists.

Meaningful games played would be 8 instead of 4 for the finals.

OK thanks. Slowly starting to get it! Since starting with 9 players I will only have 3 players in the final group. Does that affect anything since the TGP guide is based on 4 player groups? (the 3 other rounds will have 4 players)

Email me about this one and I can rope in Dave Stewart to do some math for us :slight_smile:

I have a possible solution. 1st round I will only eliminate one player. Subsequent rounds will have 2 players eliminated causing 4 players to end up in the last round. Sound good?

Works for me . . .

Cool. One more question? (hopefully :slight_smile: If all rounds are 3 game matches but the final 4 play all 5 games in the bank games does add 2 more to the tally (from 11 TGP to 13)? Or because that is the “longest path” calculation it does not add the 2 extra games?

Because all 4 finalists would play those 5 games, it’s impossible for the winner to NOT play those games.

In this case the “expected path” and the “longest path” for that final is the same.

It would actually go from 11 TGP to 15 TGP. Those additional 2 finals games would be worth 2X . . . so it would be +4.

OK fantastic. Thanks Josh!

TGP calculation help please. I’m running a very simple 5-fair strikes tournament in groups of 4, with 25 players. To submit results, I’m directed to the slapsave page to calculate TGP.
Strikes TGP (slapsave.com)
Here’s what it says:
TGP
14.56 average games towards TGP, 8.3 average rounds played after 5000 simulations

So 14.56 towards TGP means what? Is that the value I should submit for TGP or is there something else that I’m supposed to factor in? Am I overthinking “towards”?

When I submitted this to the IFPA calendar, I was required to specify MGP. I wish I understood better what to submit there too. I think I submitted 8, guessing that would be about the number of games the winner would have to play (it was).

All of this is confusing for me, just trying to run and report simple tournaments. I’ve read some of the other forum threads where people are strategically trying to structure their events to maximize value, and all of it goes over my head. This process makes me hesitant to try new formats, even though I think my players would enjoy something different sometimes.
Thanks for any advice on this specific submission. Is this the right forum to discuss, or is there a better one?

A game being “counted towards TGP” basically means it adds 4% to the TGP (Tournament Grading Percentage). Since IFPA doesn’t do fractional meaningful games, you would round that 14.56 up to 15, so that’s 60% TGP.

Making the output of the strikes calculator a bit more human readable instead of “IFPA jargon only” is on my todo list.

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When you submit your results use 14 as the value for the “Meaningful Games Played (TGP)” field.

I agree that “towards” is confusing here, don’t overthink it. The use of “(TGP)” in that submission form field is also confusing, it should probably just say “meaningful games played”.

You had the right idea but missed two components. Guesstimating the number of rounds the winner would play was a great starting point (8 for your tournament). Then you needed to double it because those rounds were in 4-player groups (head-to-head games count as 1 meaningful game; 3-player games count as 1.5 meaningful games; 4-player games count at 2 meaningful games; this is basically because those games take longer and you’re facing off against more opponents so a win is more meaningful). So now your guestimate is at 16. But with a strikes tournament sometimes the event runs longer or shorter (e.g. every player gets eliminated with exactly the necessary number of strikes vs some players get eliminated with “extra” strkes, e.g. out with 6 strikes in a 5-strike tournament); and also the games towards the end are not among 4-players (you might have a round with two 3-player groups and then another round with just the top 2 players) so those rounds don’t get the full 2x mutiplier. In the end it works out to about 14.56 meaningful games for a 5-strike tournament if you run a bunch of simulations to see how all of that shakes out and correctly account for each round being worth 1x, 1.5x or 2x based on the players per group. So you give your 16 game estimate a small haircut and put in 14.

In practice, if you can estimate the number of players who will show up then you can just put that into Strikes TGP (slapsave.com) before you submit your tournament and use that as your value for the “Meaningful # of Games Played?” field on the tournament submission form.

It can definitely be complicated, but don’t let it be scary. Really, after you submit your results the IFPA approvers double check the the inputs to make sure you get the right TGP even if you put in the wrong value for that drop down. The input on the tournament submission form is to communicate to players how much the tournament is going to be worth but hopefully the players who care that much about it know how to do that kind of rough estimation on their own too.

If you have an idea of a tournament you want to run, post it here on Tilt Forms and you’ll get quick feedback on expected TGP (how to calculate it), expected number of round, pros/cons/quirks noticed by people who have run that format before.

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It should be 15, since you would round those 14.56 up. There’s no need to put in a buffer anymore in case the tournament turns out to run shorter, because the IFPA doesn’t look at actual games played anymore, but is now also just using the expected value based on simulation for tournament results approval.

I don’t think the submission form actually says TGP anywhere, does it? As far as I remember, there’s only Meaningful # of Games Played, and thank god that’s not abbreviated to MGP like @Boise_D did up there, because that would be hella confusing, with TGP meaning something completely different.

Thank you, that helps a lot. I was wondering where the 15 came from. I didn’t realize that the 2x value for groups of 4 applied to strikes format too. The fuzzy math is getting clearer. I understand now how 8 rounds is the guesstimate based on the number of players expected, then there’s a 2x boost because of playing in 4-player groups, then that gets normalized a little per your explanation to 15 (I rounded up), and then somewhere after I submit that gets multiplied by 4 to give a tournament value of 60% TGP. Something like that? It makes sense, I hope I can remember. Thank you, I appreciate the help.
If I thought I could calculate it (or match play just calculated it for me), I’d do an event like they used to run in Tacoma. 4-player groups with bonus points awarded based on beating the next 2 players score combined. I’d like to try a best game qualifier + ladder finals too, but I’m not clear on how that works. I’ll read the match play descriptions for that. My reason for running different formats is to give my player a different and fun experience, not maximizing value.

Yep, that’s exactly right. The “somewhere” is during the process of the IFPA reviewing your results and posting them to the tournament’s page. They come up with the 15 x 4 = 60% number there.

TGP% typically just comes from: “each meaningful game played adds 4% to TGP”. There are other rules for formats with unlimited qualifying (“each hour of unlimited qualifying adds 1% to TGP”). Likewise there are special rules for Flip Frenzy, Pin Golf, and Multi-Match Play. And there are a few spots where TGP% is capped (just playing a single format with no separate qualifying: 100% cap; playing qualifying and finals: 200% cap).

This is the same as any other Group Match Play format. The extra bonus points don’t change the way it affects TGP. You can use 7/5/3/1, 4/2/1/0, or bonus points like this and it is all treated the same way. So if you did 6 rounds of group match play in 4-player groups you’d get 6 rounds x 2 for group size multiplier = 12 meaningful games => 48% TGP.

Best game is all about how many scores you keep. So let’s say you have 8 machines available and you count each player’s score from their best 6 of those machines. Those are single-player games so there’s no multiplier for group size. Each one contributes a single game to the number of meaningful games played: 6 meaningful games. If you count their best score from all 8 games, that’s 8 meaningful games.

If instead you did something like count each players two best scores and on every one of the 8 machines, that would be 16 game results that you’re keeping, so that kind of qualifying would count for 16 meaningful games.

It doesn’t matter how many games are played, only how many games’ results contribute towards the standings. If everyone played all 8 games 10 times each but you only count their best score on each of 6 machines, it’s still just 6 meaningful games.

Keep in mind that you should also have a TD/Scorekeeper present for best game qualifying. You shouldn’t be using results from an unmonitored selfie league to count towards meaningful games.

Honestly, I don’t really understand meaningful games for ladder very well myself. I’d say just look at this portion of the TGP guide and go with one of the options they provide there.

So, for example, go with:

4 player groups, 2 players eliminated per round until final 4 players remain (assumes 1 game for final 4)

  • 4 players –> 2 games towards TGP
  • 5-6 players –> 3 games towards TGP
  • 7-64 players –> 4 games towards TGP

If you have 14 players in the ladder final that’s going to be 4 meaningful games played. And it’s going to take 6 games to do it because you go from 14 players => 12 => 10 => 8 => 6 => 4 and then play a single game top 4. Playing 6 rounds to get 4 meaningful games isn’t very WPPR-efficent, but if your players enjoy it then do it!

Or if you don’t mind being a little unsure about the TGP% you’lll get then do whatever style of ladder you want to do, describe it accurately in your IFPA calendar submission & IFPA results submission, and let the experts sort it out. They’ll post the right value to your tournament results page once they’ve reviewed it.

When you have a qualifying component and a finals component, you determine the meaningful games for each and then just add them together for the tournament’s total number of meaningful games.

Even better! I though that value only got rounded down. Thanks for the correction.

:crying_cat_face:

I didn’t realize—this is certainly less than ideal and explains why so many people believe the “GP” in “TGP” stands for Games Played. @pinwizj (or maybe @Shep?) any chance we can change that wording to e.g. just Meaningful games played or Meaningful games played towards TGP? The current wording Meaningful Games Played (TGP) makes it sound as if those two things are the same, confusing a lot of people.

I just wrote some code to show how this is just expected number of games played by the winner like in all the other finals formats, and how it can easily be calculated, but as it turns out, the numbers don’t actually match.

@pinwizj again, do you happen to know how the TGP Guide’s numbers for the Ladder Format have been calculated? 2-player groups (1 eliminated), 3-player groups (1 eliminated) and 4-player groups (2 eliminated) seem fine, but the numbers in the main one, 4-player groups (1 eliminated) seem off.

Is this an intended deviation from the expected #games played by the winner principle because of the circuit finals or whatever, or is it just a mistake?

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Dave Stewart put together a bunch of tables for us that we used for the guide. Here’s the one that was used for the ladder format:

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Deleted my post… I think I see my mistake.