Definitely just about spit my coffee out at that one. Well done. 
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While I think “ladies first” is pretty innocuous as far as sexist things go, I will say it does grind my gears because for the most part in competitive pinball, going last is an advantage. So it’s hard to tell when someone is being polite (while still treating me differently from dudes, so still not a fan) or trying to gain an advantage while looking polite. Even in non-gendered situations, just flip the damn coin (or whatever the TD-approved method for determining order is); like, if you like to go first, that’s great, but don’t just say “I’ll go first unless you want to,” because that makes people feel awkward or obligated to act a certain way. Let the coin flip happen and, if you win the toss, choose to go first! Not that hard. /rant
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Went to a pinball event tonight and a bunch of women from the league went too, and in the end about 30% women in the tournament. A number of times we would flip for position, the guy would win choice, then choose player one when up against a woman.
They would never pick player one against a guy, so we were forced to crush their scores.
Adding: the tournament director said next time he wanted the software to choose player order, since flips were distracting. So that will solve that business
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Our local match play tournaments use Brackelope which pairs people up and essentially chooses the order for us. So I’d be just as likely to be player 1/3 in a “me vs. X” as I would player 2/4 in a “X vs. me” scenario.
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Totally anecdotal. They did not say “Ladies’ first” or anything like that to make a show of it, but I’ve never heard of someone choosing 1st position in a heads-up match before. 
but on that note, off to the “Advantages Of playing last?” thread!
Man I hope I don’t get painted with that brush by anyone. I often pick first if I’m playing a game with no strategical advantage to playing second just because I get in my head really badly if my opponent has a good ball 1. I bet it does happen though; it wouldn’t surprise me.
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Probably only if you did it exclusively when playing women.
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Wouldn’t worry, I really don’t think you do. On the flip side, I like playing first against you to save time on the overall match. That way you can decimate me in two balls instead of three.
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Some people do it for a change of pace… some try to ‘snap themselves out of the rut’ and get right to playing again vs waiting again… or just want to mix it up… some just prefer it. Point being, there is more than one possible justification behind an observed action.
Often when playing a lot with the same peeps… I’ll let the other person go last just as a ‘give and take’ even when we are playing for money.
People are complex and varied…
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This is a good topic, thanks. I’m interested in some feedback on an issue that came up at a national open a couple years ago:
For some reason, in many of the larger tournaments in my country, there’s a separate set of women’s trophies, in addition to the main trophies. There isn’t a separate women’s tournament, there’s just the main event, but in the end the best female players get an extra trophy. At many of the bigger events, the software in use also highlights female players in some way on the ranking screens, so they can track their progress in their respective “subtournament”.
Now, at that specific tournament I’m talking about there was apparently some error in producing the trophies. I don’t know whose mistake it was, but it turned out that the main trophies said something like “Men #1” (mirroring the “Women #1” text on the women’s extra trophies).
Obviously, that doesn’t make any sense, but it didn’t seem like any of the participating women were much bothered by their preemptive exclusion from the top ranks.
I found that interesting, so I opened a discussion in our local forums about whether it makes sense to have those extra women’s trophies at all. There wasn’t any feedback from female players, so I talked to some of them directly, and those I talked to said they actually appreciated the extra recognition, and didn’t want that trophy system to change.
Personally, I find it weird to single out a group of players and give them extra recognition, but I can’t argue with setting up a tournament in a way that makes all the participants happy.
There’s a blatant selection bias, of course, so I’d be interested in some more opinions on the issue: Would you appreciate being recognized as the best female player in a tournament? Do you think it’s a good thing that there’s a higher number of female participants in a tournament because there’s some special recognition prize to be had?
The main argument for a women’s division, top female qualifier, and/or separate women’s championship is that the pinball community is demographically very male. Like, I don’t know how to make the letters in the word “very” big enough to communicate how skewed it has been historically toward male participation. So, women’s divisions, top female qualifier prizes, and/or a separate women’s championship are all ways of giving talented women recognition as well as incentivizing newer female players to participate competitively by offering incentives other than “win the whole thing.” Because women as a group are so underrepresented in pinball, offering these alternatives to us is a strategy to rectify the balance and have more equal participation across the gender spectrum. Highlighting women who are participating in a tournament has the added benefit of showing other ladies who might be interested but intimidated or feel unwelcome that there are kickass women out there playing pinball and we would love them to join our ranks.
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#very
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Thanks, that’s the general vibe I got, and if this actually helps rectify the balance, that’s very good. The reason I’m asking is that in many tournaments, there’s also a “Kids #1” trophy, which works the same as the “Women #1” trophy, just for kids, and I’ve always felt a bit weird about the implications.
The kids probably never get to play against another kid during the whole tournament, because it’s so heavily skewed towards adult male participants, so the trophy is basically just a recognition for the kid that managed best to hold their own against the “real” players. With kids, that’s perfectly alright, everyone is happy.
On the other hand, I’m imagining participating in some sports competition I’m ambitious about. I’m an adult male, and that sport happens to be dominated by female players. The women are welcoming, if a bit condescending, because they know from experience someone like me probably won’t be too much trouble. And they’re right, many of them are actually a lot better than me. I give it my best, and in the end I come in somewhere in the upper middle field. Turns out I was the best male competitor, so just after the best kid got their trophy, I’m getting a round of applause, too, and a little trophy that basically says “you did a great job, considering, and we’d love to have you back next time”.
That’s a nice gesture for sure, but personally, I think my ambition would take a bit of a hit, and I’ll probably not ask my male friends to come with me next time. They already think it’s weird I’m serious about competing in this mainly female sport, and this special recognition prize just makes it a bit weirder, since it highlights the general belief that my ambitions of winning the whole thing one day are somewhat misguided.
Anyway, that’s my reasoning for why this sort of trophy setup might actually prevent getting new female players into the mindset that there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be able to win a tournament (and women winning tournaments is probably the best way to get other women interested). Maybe I’m totally off, I’m genuinely interested in opinions.
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Well if it pays money then dang right I’ll play a women’s tournament. I think I might even play better than in a normal tournament since I wouldn’t have any excuses. As long as pinball is dominated by men, having a separate women’s tournament is a good way to recognize and encourage women to play. I would only find it offensive if I was only allowed to play in a women’s tournament since it would imply that I wasn’t good enough to play in the “real” tournament.
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It’s certainly insightful to flip the gender scenario, but I think the portion I’ve quoted above is where it falls apart: women pinball players are NOT misguided in their ambition and belief that they can win open tournaments, because they CAN and DO win prominent open tournaments.
Is it common at this point? No. But I hope that changes.
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This seems like a “practical example” to me. 
https://instagram.com/p/BKWO5JGgY8H/
Come check out our new league at the Flipperspiel Underground. Dolls with pinBalls is a ladies only pinBall league in Las Vegas. We are open to all skill levels - even if you haven’t played pinball since you were 8 please come out! We will be playing lots of pinball, meeting new friends, and enjoying Friday evenings at 7pm in a smoke-free environment. BYOB
Sorry jdelz, I would normally agree (and I see now you removed your post) but I was simply trying to link to the actual Instagram post. For some reason, the Discourse software takes the IG link and embeds it as nothing more than an image with no link to the actual post, so I’ve done my best to duplicate it here and formatted a proper URL now that I’ve figured out what works.
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