Post Pinburgh reaction thread - how'd you do, how happy are you with it, etc?

[PinballNarcissist]

I would make a separate post for this point, but finals on Saturday does seem like the way to go. Would that be viable for PAPA19? You are potentially losing revenue to put towards finals prizes, so maybe open up qualifying on Wednesday and then close up shop earlier on Sunday. Also what kind of scoreboard ideas have the tds been throwing around?

[bkerins]

@cayle

Example2: leading in to pinburgh we were all threatened with the rule that if you knocked a game out of its rubber cups you would be DQ’d. In The play off for qualifiers to be in our out of B finals (7 for 2 spots?), the player with the top score knocked the game out of one of the cups onto the floor on their last ball. The next player up and other participants brought it up to the official immediately. The official ruled that because they didn’t see the state of the legs and rubber cups when the game started that it didn’t count and there would be no DQ. Then, the officials proceeded to lift the game and put it back in the cups giving the player who was up next a tilt-warning. Essentially it turned into some sort of reverse punishment.

The “out of the cups” rule needs either rethinking or a full supply of those deeper cups. My recollection of this situation (which is hazy) is that the leg wasn’t completely out of the cup (the leg was not on the floor, it was on the edge of the cup), so it did not count as “out of the cups”, and I called over the lead TD to confirm this as consistent with the rulings we had been making about the cups. We then tried (and failed) to put the machine in its correct position without inducing a warning. Regardless, I take responsibility for this. There were too many tiebreakers running at once, which meant they were not well supervised – that needs to change.

@cayle

I had a em game where people had points on the reels before they plunged ball one due to a hardware reset between players malfunction - it was ruled those points were inconsequential and meaningless, however those points added up to %5 of your average game total score on that machine.

If you can tell me more about the circumstances around this, we can try to make sure it doesn’t happen again. It seems like resetting again would be the way to go here, so I feel like there must be some other detail I’m missing. When there are scoring issues like this, the options are “play on”, “start over”, and “adjust scores downward if everyone agrees to it” (in the beneficial malfunction section). Judgment on minor scoring issues (100 points on Supersonic) is usually “play on”, but then that needs an accurate decision on what is or isn’t minor.

Lighting choices in the convention center were “glare city” or “dark city”, our standings projector broke down, and the “DLLCC Guest” wifi did not work for everyone. And yes, I too hope we murder that dance game. I’m confident all these issues will be improved upon for 2016.

Thanks for the feedback and nice to see you!

[darthxaos]

@bkerins

the “DLLCC Guest” wifi did not work for everyone.

I found it worked in the lobby but not in the convention hall.

[bkerins]

It worked very well for me in close proximity to the lobby, which is probably why I thought it was pretty solid compared to others

[cayle]

@bkerins

The “out of the cups” rule needs either rethinking or a full supply of those deeper cups. My recollection of this situation (which is hazy) is that the leg wasn’t completely out of the cup (the leg was not on the floor, it was on the edge of the cup), so it did not count as “out of the cups”, and I called over the lead TD to confirm this as consistent with the rulings we had been making about the cups. We then tried (and failed) to put the machine in its correct position without inducing a warning. Regardless, I take responsibility for this. There were too many tiebreakers running at once, which meant they were not well supervised – that needs to change.

Agreed, the rubber cup rule needs re-thinking. And, for the record, the deep cups are the worst playing versions so I wont vote for that change

Leg had its weight on the floor - Was half on the floor, half on the edge of the cup. Regardless, the communication to the other players in that group could have been better as they felt the ruling was based upon the initial state of the leg being unknown.

@bkerins

If you can tell me more about the circumstances around this, we can try to make sure it doesn’t happen again. It seems like resetting again would be the way to go here, so I feel like there must be some other detail I’m missing. When there are scoring issues like this, the options are “play on”, “start over”, and “adjust scores downward if everyone agrees to it” (in the beneficial malfunction section). Judgment on minor scoring issues (100 points on Supersonic) is usually “play on”, but then that needs an accurate decision on what is or isn’t minor.

The malfunctions on this game happened after player 1 had played ball 1. This was on Dragon starting with dragons already down with both points being scored and bonus added, and, the addition of the orbits being wide open at start of ball. The specific ruling was “We don’t subtract points” and “That’s insignificant.”

Details aside, i think it would be good for officials to carry a copy of the rules in print, and when any ruling is made, point to the rule in the book and show it to the players involved. it could set a good standard so that everyone feels like there is consistency, and given that rules between major events sometimes vary there wouldn’t be guesswork as to what the rules of Pinburgh actually are.

[pinwizj]

A good tip from my experience that we implemented at IFPA is no TD makes a ruling by themselves. We require confirmation with a second TD.

It’s worked well as a “double check” and allows either Brian, Zach or myself to be more confident about the ruling.

I saw this in a good way at Pinburgh with one of rulings for me. Polka got MHS and they talked it over, made the decision and executed.

I also saw this in the same bad way where one of the assistant TD’s did the hmmmm that’s interesting …

Never make a ruling alone and it just makes everything better.

[BatCityJon]

One ruling I got was…interesting. Was in Black Rose multiball and hit the cannon and the other ball ended up cradled on the right flipper. I noticed the ball wasn’t being kicked out of the cannon so brought it to the attention of my group. Tech’s came over and opened the game up and it triggered the scoop, giving me the 2M for a multiball cannon shot. They then put the ball on my right flipper with my other ball. I failed a cradle separation. Kind of crappy situation but understand why it happened. However, the 2M points were deducted from my score because they were “triggered” by the techs…even though I hit the shot to begin with. I ended up hitting a ball back into the cannon and it got stuck again. This time in removing the ball and fixing the switch, the techs triggered my ramp millions which should have been my award for hitting the shot.

Most frustrating was the A finals game of Whodunnit where the elevator target bank stopped working. After an elevator madness where I had to deal with the rising targets, it was tough seeing Dave looping the shot over and over and slowly overtake my score. That being said, the solution is always to play better.

Any other criticisms have been stated by others in the thread, so let me end by saying this was and will hopefully remain the best pinball tournament in the world. I enjoyed playing with everyone in my groups and everyone was friendly and having a great time. I tried to thank all the volunteers and techs but if I missed anyone: thank you, thank you, thank you!

[bkerins]

@cayle

Leg had its weight on the floor - Was half on the floor, half on the edge of the cup. Regardless, the communication to the other players in that group could have been better as they felt the ruling was based upon the initial state of the leg being unknown.

Right. This was consistent with other “leg” rulings we had made – if it’s not completely out, it was allowed. It’s my mistake in not providing better communication about it, and I apologize.

It’s worth thinking about whether to change the “leg” rule to cover what happened here, since it clearly impacted the game. We went with the rule as written.

On Dragon, it’s a sticky situation. I welcome suggestions for what we should do; the alternative is probably “throw out the game” which is not ideal at all. If we had reports that it was happening frequently on Dragon, we would have already thrown out the game or tried a replacement. When this happens for the first time during a game, a decision has to be made about its significance; in this case two TDs both agreed it had a small enough impact to play on (and didn’t qualify as a “beneficial malfunction”). When it happened again it was surprising, but the same decision probably has to be made as was made the first time. After that game, we had techs try to ensure it wouldn’t happen any more.

I liken this to something like Target Alpha or Jumping Jack where the drops reset at the start of each ball, but for one player, one time, one of the drops doesn’t reset … what happens? Is it “play on”? Do you throw out the game? Definitely curious what people think about this – we chose “play on”.

Carrying around and showing the rules is a good idea, but also would require some simplification of the rules (for example, separating all malfunction-and-behavior rules from the how-the-tournament-works rules). This is a good idea on both fronts

Thanks again for the comments!!

[pinwizj]

@bkerins

Right. This was consistent with other “leg” rulings we had made – if it’s not completely out, it was allowed. It’s my mistake in not providing better communication about it, and I apologize.

It’s worth thinking about whether to change the “leg” rule to cover what happened here, since it clearly impacted the game. We went with the rule as written.

I’m not exactly sure what the leg/rubber foot situation looked like, but when adding this into the rules with MHS the tipping point for the DQ for the game was - “whether any portion of the leg leveler is physically in contact with the ground.” (this was previously mentioned on rgp3 in the rubber foot post)

An update on this rule that will be added after talking with Doug and MHS this weekend is with respect to player 4, last ball in play. That player also risks a DQ should they move the game enough that any portion of the leg leveler is in physical contact with the ground even though it doesn’t interfere with any future player for that game.

whether any portion of the leg leveler is physically in contact with the ground.

[nighthawk]

@bkerins

I liken this to something like Target Alpha or Jumping Jack where the drops reset at the start of each ball, but for one player, one time, one of the drops doesn’t reset … what happens? Is it “play on”? Do you throw out the game? Definitely curious what people think about this – we chose “play on”.

I don’t know those games well enough… does the order of targets dropped matter? Is there one particular lit drop that’s worth more? Is the value of that dropped target worth a significant percentage of the expected points on a game (slippery slope here, but Cayle mentioned it earlier)? If so, then I’d say it’s a problem that needs a ruling, otherwise “play on.”

Using Centaur as an example, what happens if the O drops before a plunge? What happens if the R, B, or S drops before the plunge? (I know that if the O drops, and you hit the R you get credit for hitting the O and R in order.)

[bkerins]

That sounds like it should be part of the rule. What was written for this tournament was this:

“Any player who moves a game to the point it slides off of a rubber foot beneath the game’s leg will be given a score of zero for the game.”

I like your version better.

[pinwizj]

Here’s the update paragraph post-Pinburgh going forward:

“Any player who moves a game to the point it slides off of a rubber foot beneath the game’s leg will be given a score of zero for the game. This is determined based on any portion of the leg leveler being in physical contact with the ground. A tournament director will then attempt to put the game back onto the rubber foot. If successful, the game will continue. If a tilt-through occurs, the appropriate tilt-through procedure will be followed. Should this happen to the last player on the last ball of the game, the same rules will be enforced, with a score of zero being given to that player.”

[cayle]

Fogot to mention something:

Who Dunnit

For anyone that uses this in a tournament, please, please disable the “staged ball” in the software. This is very critical to having a fair playing WD.

Disabling the staged ball will eliminate the ability to plunge the super skill over and over without the ball save expiring. For whatever reason, this setting makes it so a super skill shot validates the playfield iirc.

If you leave the stage ball on as was at pinburgh, players can super skill over and over (boring and lame), AND, if your turn comes up after the staged ball has been unloaded by another player you can’t plunge over and over and get shafted. Worst of all, with stage ball on, if its been unloaded by another player, if you shoot the slot it will stage that ball and give you an out of control autoplunge with no ball save.

Finally, I have my suspicions that the bad up/down gate state can be caused and exploited purposefully by players when staged ball is on as was at pinburgh by avoiding certain shots.

[GarrettHays]

Just out of curiosity, how did games like Lights Camera Action make it into the tournament? These seem like anti-tournament games. Bondo over the saucer’s for next year?

[jay]

Something else I’ve thought about, and it goes back to the CAX finals too, is that having a short playing game in a final sure ramps up the excitement for the crowd and those watching online. The game Jim and Josh H played on Scuba for the CAX crown was one of the most entertaining single games I’ve seen in awhile and the last game on Super Orbit at Pinburgh was no worse. I hope TDs are noticing this and keep games like this in finals banks. And I hope tournament formats can allow for these types of games to be played more often with everything on the line. The difference in excitement between something like Super Orbit, where every shot could wind up in a game losing drain or game winning bonus collect, and some of the longer playing modern games, where you feel like every player stepping up is going to be there for at least 10 minutes, is night and day I think.

[jdelz]

That might be more exciting for the bulk of the casual spectators, but I’d much rather watch / play something more controllable when the stakes are high. If finals were always going to happen on highly random EMs, I guarantee you’d see a drop off in top tier players making the trip to play in those events.

[darthxaos]

Yeah, but watching things like Cayle’s game on Who Dunnit have a charm of their own

[epthegeek]

@nighthawk

I know that securing the hotel block in the Westin was an adventure in and of itself, but was disappointed that (I think?) all of the rooms secured were of the 2 double beds variety

I booked the first day the block was available and did have a king room – so there definitely were some. However, if it’s in the same location next year, I may opt for a different hotel only slightly farther to walk to (Hampton Inn) that had free parking and breakfast (of which the Westin offered neither).

[PinUbermensch]

I thoroughly enjoyed Pinburgh. This was a first and I was in C division. I can understand people unhappy with the concrete floor, but it did not affect my performance playing a game of pinball at all. My nerves and game knowledge on the other hand… I also had adequate lighting for every game I played. Again, I understand others may have had difficulty seeing the ball. I just hope Pinburgh is at the same location or similar next year. What an amazing festival! Thank you everyone!

[bkerins]

Thanks, this sounds like a better suggestion for tournament play than “never use Who Dunnit again”, the other option