Playing Out of Turn on Ball 1

General
81

We have plenty of rules. Then we have discretion for these situations that will never happen. :wink:

82

But what if a ball gets stuck on a plastic on Stars? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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83

What if we walked up to an already started 4 player game with the ball stuck there. You’re player one. Are you allowed to get that ball on a trap to start your game?

:slight_smile:

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84

What’s up with all the making fun of hypotheticals? Did I miss the memo, and this is Pinside now? Is there a better place to discuss this sort of thing with other people who also enjoy discussing rules and hypotheticals?

I don’t get that “doesn’t matter, it’s TD discretion anyway” stance either—yeah, it’s TD discretion, I’m a TD, and I want my discretion to be based on a consistent mental model of the rules, that’s what I’m here for.

Thanks, that’s a very good point I hadn’t considered. So, it’s basically these two contentious situations that can come up in this context:

  • Situation A: P1 plunges with the intent to clear a previous game. P2 complains, says the game has started and P1 has just drained their ball 1.

  • Situation B: P2 plunges with the intent to clear a previous game. P1 complains, says the game has started and P1 should be DQ’d.

I think it’s fine to just go by stated intent, i.e. ask P1 “why did you plunge that ball, did you mean to clear a previous game, or did you mean to start your ball?” If they lie to my face, fine, that’s on them.

  • Definition 1: “Game starts when P1 plunges their first ball”:
    A: easy to decide, P1 is the single source of truth on whether that plunge actually was “their first ball” or not
    B: easy to decide, the game hasn’t started yet, so no DQ

  • Definition 2: “Game starts when the machine has 0 points and the correct number of players, but only if somebody involved in the game or a TD has pushed the start button, unless the players agree they’ll play that game anyway?”:
    A: hard to decide whether the game has already started or not
    B: hard to decide whether the game has already started or not

I’d still rather go with definition 1.

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85

I’m not going to read this whole thread, so I apologize if this was already mentioned…

If a game isn’t valid until P1 starts playing their ball 1, then what’s to stop any of the other players from stepping up to get free practice on P1’s ball without penalty? Find a skill shot, tilt setting, whatever else may be of interest.

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86

Thanks for your input, JoeTheDragon.

I don’t think that would be an issue, a flipper button plunge is still a plunge, so the game has started.

Sure, normal rules about the correct number of players still apply.

Or skill shot practice. I think that’s a general issue in tournaments where it’s not allowed to power cycle, and you might walk up to an unfinished game. Not particularly related to the “start of game” definition, though, I don’t think.

87

I agree that what you outlined in the first definition is a good way to handle it. (Typo on your post by the way, you have definition 1 twice.)

I like that “ask the player their intent” is consistent with the stuck ball in multiball policy which uses the word “intentionally” as well.

1 Like
88

Tournament/house rules that forbid practice and free play—so, basically the same things that also prevent me from just walking up to any machine and playing a few balls in between rounds.

Just because I don’t immediately get DQ’d for plunging a ball since the game wasn’t valid yet, doesn’t mean it’s okay for me to do anything I want without penalty.

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89

But what if P2 “did it by accident” because they thought they were P1?

The fear of DQ naturally prevents edge cases like this, so personally I like to stay consistent in calling this situation a DQ in my events.

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90

Perpetually addressing each hypothetical edge case isn’t as useful as trying to understand the reasoning behind a rule and applying that reasoning to your future rulings.

Communicate with your player base ‘this is the rule set I’m using, call me if any situation comes up that you want my input on. I will sometimes make mistakes, my ruling is final and we can discuss a better solution at a later time.’

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91

As I mentioned in another recent thread…

‘I appreciate discussions like this one. I rarely participate in them, but I’m glad we have so many smart folks in the sport who do. Thanks to all of you respectfully arguing your side. Our sport is not easy to officiate and it never will be.’

This is a 90 post thread about playing out of turn on ball 1. Not playing out of turn in general, just on ball 1. Thanks for contributing. Really.

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92

I think that’s not an issue that’s made any worse by “my” definition of game start, because that’s something players can always do—just put in the wrong number of players “by accident” and play some practice, there’s no preventing that. In both cases, the player has to be willing to lie to you about it.

In order to be consistent in that matter, you have to have a clear definition of game start in mind, though—just out of interest, what is that for you? Correct number of players and 0 points on the board, regardless of who pushed the start button and when? That’s sort of my goal here, get to a definition of game start that causes the least amount of issues.

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93

Yep, that has always worked well in my experience as a standard validating point for an active game about to be started. I’ve never come across any shenanigans trying to manipulate that into anything else.

“BuT wHaT iF tHe GaMe iS MoNoPoLy AnD eVeRyOnE hAs 1500 pOiNtS iNsTeAd Of zErO??” :crazy_face:

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94

I get that, and it makes sense. I was just taken aback for a moment, because I’m not bothering anybody with THIS RULE NEEDS TO CHANGE BECAUSE WHAT IF [something that never happens] HAPPENS, I just wanted to think through a situation with people who also enjoy doing that sort of thing.

But yeah, totally makes sense to consider the reasoning behind a rule:

As far as I’m aware, the playing-out-of-turn rule is the way it is (no exceptions), because it’s very easy to enforce that way. There’s harsh consequences for violating it, so it has to be simple and easy to enforce, without a lot of wiggle room. It can only be enforced once the game has actually started, though, so in the spirit of the rule, I think any viable definition of game start should keep the playing-out-of-turn rule as simple and easy to enforce as possible.

Oh, that reminds me … brb, have to go to the intentional tilt thread …

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95

Nobody but P1 (or a TD) should be operating any game controls until it’s their turn (assuming no-practice rules). You can eliminate a lot of edge cases by enforcing that rule.

96

so P1 needs pay for all players when on coin drop?

97

No? Everyone puts in their money and walks away. They are not operating it. Or they can hand the money to P1(which is normally what I do to pay prevent traffic back up)

98

well you may need to be ok with all players being able to swipe / use there own cards even more so with an CC

99

I’ve run events for half a decade now and literally NEVER had any player that could not figure out coin drop in a timely manner.

If such a situation comes up handle it at that time using your best judgement.

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100

I would assume if you attended a tournament that you would be familiar or ok with those things happening. I have no issue communicating with my group like a human.