Some people exist on earth only to complain. At my first PAPA tournament, I of course played C but by some freak coincidence, I managed to qualify for classics. Apparently there were people complaining about this being sandbagging, I was taken aback to say the least.
I’m curious what people would do in a scenario where they are presented with evidence of collusion and/or blatant sandbagging, and how it would be handled. Take the following examples
- You come over to say hi to a group who just finished their EM and note that the scores on their scoresheet do not match the scores on the score reels in such a way that there is advantage to the group.
- You come over to say hi to a group who are on game three and notice they have already filled out and signed their scorecard as 6-6-6-6 such that they all make it through to finals.
- You see a group shake hands, play halfheartedly, and come out 6-6-6-6 such that they all make it through to finals.
- You see a player walk up, plunge a ball and walk off in any situation.
Would you as a TD, and I mean this not just to @bkerins but to anyone, DQ the player(s) involved in those scenarios? Which would you and which would you not? Would who the players are factor into your decision? If a non-TD player saw this happening, would you want them to have the group halt play so you could come over and rule?
Basically, if we are going to have these rules, are we willing to enforce them? If not then why have them? Because I hear a lot about people talking here about sandbagging and collusion, and in a way where they seem to know explicit examples of it happening, but I don’t recall any situation ever in which such rules have been enforced.
Has it ever been discussed that maybe Pinburgh could just borrow a page from PAPA’s book and have you choose a division up front? (with tighter restrictions probably). Then you just get 10 rounds of playing in your division.
Crazy enough to work ?
I know specifically from this year that a player in round 5 was sandbagging into B by tilting out of their game. The rest of the group alerted a TD and that player was penalized by being put at the bottom of B. Like you said above, it’s really up to the individuals to call this out as TDs can’t be everywhere at all times.
And of course there is an acceptable scenario of plunging a ball and walking away: when you’re player 4, ball 3 (5) and have already won the game.
That is interesting, I didn’t know about this. Did that player just not play day two then?
They played day 2 but didn’t make the finals.
You come over to say hi to a group who just finished their EM and note that the scores on their scoresheet do not match the scores on the score reels in such a way that there is advantage to the group.
- Id’ tell them first “Hey your scores aren’t right on your sheet you should correct that” assuming first that it could be an honest mistake, if they said it was on purpose, Walk off and tell a TD, cause forget collusion that is also cheating
You come over to say hi to a group who are on game three and notice they have already filled out and signed their scorecard as 6-6-6-6 such that they all make it through to finals.
- Ask why the sheet is filled out, listen to the explanation and then tell a TD if the explanation is we just marked it all as 6
You see a group shake hands, play halfheartedly, and come out 6-6-6-6 such that they all make it through to finals.
- That is too subjective, define Halfheartedly? If they are playing the games and not out right slam tiliting the machine who am I to say they are not playing properly, could just be they are tired.
You see a player walk up, plunge a ball and walk off in any situation.
- This would be the toughest for me, if I’m in a group and someone wants to hand me points I’m inclined to let them. They could be sandbagging, they could be fed up with playing, but either way I’ll take those points. If I’m playing in a group and its the group beside me, I still don’t bother doing anything either.
I think my line in the sand is when as a group they decide the outcome. If the other 3 players are just innocent by-standards, they didn’t pay the person off or ask them to throw the game, who am I to tell a person what he has to do with his tournament life, he paid the same $100 I did to get in the tournament, if he wants to piss points down the drain then his opponents just hit the lottery
I found what appears to be this player and they in fact didn’t play at all on Day 2, the record shows “Did not appear to play” for all day 2 matches, and their groups were all played as three players.
I think the majority that sandbag mostly just want the ability to play on day 3 in a more fun/stressful finals format, moreso than the cash prizes in B/C/D divs. The sandbagging isn’t really the problem, it’s the symptom of the problem of the arbitrary cutoffs that are taken in the middle of the tourney.
In a mythical world where there was infinite human/pinball resources, this could be solved by effectively having everyone play on day 3. This could look something like after day 1 there’s 160 people in A division, and after day 2, they are split into A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4. Same with B/C/D. This would diminish the “prestige” of winning “B” division, because clearly now there’s many more of them, and cash payouts would probably have to be altered, but this would seem to increase the “fun” factor for the average pinburgh’er much more, and decrease the incentives to sandbag as well. Of course, I don’t know if it’s possible to pull this off, likely not.
You and I are definitely talking about different players then.
I mostly agree with Adam here, except as a PLAYER I wouldn’t particularly care to be the person asking those questions.
I would alert a TD to, “Hey their scoresheet is already filled out 6’s and they are on game 2, you might want to check that out”. Let the TD have those conversations with the players, not another player.
Now as TD, I’m pretty liberal when it comes to collusion because I have to deal with it EVERY F*CKING YEAR at IFPA
I won’t act on any hearsay from anyone that comes and tells me they saw something happen, or overheard something going on. I have however in the past gone and examined scoresheets during session 8’s at IFPA’s in the past when I’ve been alerted to possible collusion, and so far all the sheets I saw matched the scores that were on the game.
There’s 3 instances where I act:
I personally see a scoresheet filled out with incorrect scores after verifying it with the machine in question. Adam is right that it could be an honest mistake, and if the group plays it off as that, I’ll allow them to adjust the scoresheet to the correct actual scores. If any of them are stupid enough to admit to any collusion, they are kicked out of my tournament.
I personally see someone tilt with the ball in the plunger lane, or do a plunge/walk off as not player 4. If you want to tank, go ahead, just make it look good and I won’t care.
I personally see a scoresheet filled out ahead of time, in which case those 4 players are kicked out of my tournament.
I have a real hard time with CHEATING in terms of not writing down the scores of the game that actually happened. I have a much easier time with people actually playing the game in front of them, writing down the scores of what actually happened, and moving on from there.
I also have a real hard time with BLATANT tanking that I’m personally witnessing as a TD.
Outside of that, go to town with your sandbagging, collusion, drug use and anything else that floats your boat (with respect to me as your TD).
Also as a player, this is your warning that if I’m ever your TD, and I ask you a question about whether you intentionally tanked a game . . . just say “NO” . . . and you win. Even if the other 3 players in your group tell me that you did, only your own admission would cause me to kick you out of my tournament.
The Scenario was you walking up to a group to say Hey, so I assumed I knew someone in the group. Figured if I know someone in the group I’d give them a chance to explain before I get a TD involved.
If I see some random group of people I don’t know walking up to the game, talking, and then writing down 6’s you bet your ass I’m going to a TD before I say word 1 to them.
This reminds me of something that crossed my mind during finals… In the poker world its reasonably common that the final table will privately, and in advance of the final, work out a deal to split the entire prize money. They still play on for the title/ranking etc, but in some ways the pressure of the final is removed by a deal being struck ahead of time.
Is that something that happens in the pinball world that people know of? Acceptable or not?
Yes it happens, acceptability…eh. One time the top 10 (yes, top 10) finalists of a tournament I played in were all so pissed off at the handling of a time crunch in the tourney finals that we just straight up split the prizes for the top 10. It also happens in bigger tournaments.
Ahhhh I see, so now it’s a GOB thing
“I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.”
I remember that situation. No one was happy about it at all.
No Pot-splitting occurred in A. I think the 10-99 forms really deter that. Nobody wants to pay taxes on someone else’s winnings
Lesson learned the hard way, but oh what a sweet lesson that was!
With giving me half your winnings Zach actually won Pinburgh and all he got was this stupid shirt