IFPA Tourney Series - Question Regarding IFPA Points


#1

We run a weekly pinball tournament using the group knockout format and submit the results to IFPA for points each week. After 4 weeks, we run a head-to-head 2x elimination (sudden death loser bracket) tournament using the results from previous 4 weeks for determining A and B divisions and seeding. We allow new players to enter and just seed them at the bottom. We do not submit this final tournament to IFPA for points based on previous discussions with Josh since this would be very similar to a “league” format and we would be double-dipping. BUT, I think we should be able to submit for points. Before you formulate your response, please hear me out!!!
Imagine if the previous 4 weeks never happened. A group of people show up to play some head-to-head pinball bracketry. We randomly (or manually) divide up the group and seed everyone and then run the tournament WITH NO QUALIFYING. Wouldn’t I be able to submit the results for points? I know they would be very very small a miniscule amount of points. But, doesn’t it make sense? We started to run this as a 5 week league and only submit the results at the end, using the rules to count TGP based on qualifying, dividing the field, etc, etc, but the points were very very low. We run each weekly “qualifying” tournament as a separate event and even offer prizes each week. So, they are definitely separate events from the final “Super Tourney.” It would be a win-win for us and IFPA (points for us and $$$ for IFPA) if we were allowed to submit the finals night results as bracket play only with no qualifying. Or, is there a way to construct a tournament series format where head-to-head qualifying nights can be submitted each week then a final “Super Tourney” could also be submitted?
Thanks for your time…


#2

I thought it was okay to submit a finals event as long as it was open to anyone to participate.

I believe Toronto Pinball League does something like this. Maybe @PressStart can answer more accurately.


#3

As I understand it, you cannot have specific prior IFPA-sanctioned events impact the outcome of a separate IFPA-sanctioned event.

This means you can have a big shindig at the end of the month where anyone can play. You cannot:

  1. Pre-split into divisions based on earlier events
  2. Have seeding based on earlier events that gives advantage to those seeds
  3. Include players that participated in prior events but did not meet 50% participation for the first round of the final event in the IFPA results
  4. Include meaningful games from prior events
    etc

That is my understanding.

There is some subtlety when using aggregate metrics like IFPA or matchplay rank or rating to determine seed, as these metrics can be impacted by recent events but not specific events. I think generally this is seen as OK.


#4
  1. Depends, you can if you still leave the event open and seed every person into the bottom of A and then also run a B division that would be fine. You wouldn’t be able to include the B division people in the standings but other than that there is no issue.

  2. Seeding is fine we don’t care about how you seed people, just as long as anyone who wants to participate can (within reason obviously you can’t give seeded people 18 byes or something so you weed out all the unseeded people before they play anyone seeded)

  3. Uh, this is a little misleading. You can’t include anyone from a previous event, 50% or otherwise. If you are running a separate open event from a league or whatever the only people who can be included are the people who participated in the event.

  4. Yep, 100% correct.


#5

I don’t run TOPL anymore but when I did, we did exactly that a 100% separate and open event that anyone could participate in.

TOPL doesn’t do that anymore.


#6

Can you clarify item 1 please? If you put “every person into the bottom of A” who is left to put into B? What am I missing? Thx


#7

Above you said you run 4 weeks of events and then seed everyone into an A and B division and run a tournament. You said you allow new players but didn’t specify how.

So if you run a tournament with seeding for an A and B division based on previous events and every new player that shows up gets seeded into the B division, that would not be eligible for sanction. The new people who showed up would not be able to win the tournament by being automatically seeded into B so essentially it is a closed tournament and we can’t sanction it for that reason.

If you have your players seeded into A and B division and then every new player who shows up gets seeded into the A division, that is fine. But you would only submit the players who participated in the A division in the results. No players in the B division are allowed to reported.


#8

Ah, ok makes sense now. What if we do not divide the field for the final event?


#9

Still a little confusing though, if I cannot submit the players in B in the results then wouldn’t I be limiting them from winning? I think that dividing the field is the issue, right?


#10

If you don’t divide the field and you are letting new players participate in the “final” you are essentially just running another tournament and everything is fine. If that is what you plan to do I wouldn’t even bother trying to confuse us by trying to tie it to your other events.

You can’t submit the B players because they are being seeded into a division based on previous results that has nothing to do with the current event and have no opportunity to win the A division. The fact they are being limited from winning the event is why you can’t submit them in the first place.


#11

Ok, sorry if I seem dense, but if I don’t divide the field and I seed everyone based on previous results (new players go the the bottom) would I be able to submit the results? Not sure if we would do this but would it be “legal” to submit? Maybe we could just limit the finals trophies to the previous participants but allow anyone to come in and take the small amount of points from the finals tourney. BTW, thx for all the explanation…


#12

I don’t think this is entirely true - if B division players are excluded from participating in the A division/IFPA event, that would not be OK. They would have to be allowed to opt in to A.

I get what you’re saying @PressStart, but I think it’s confusing and most people would not understand the distinction between how they message a tournament structure and how it is reported to IFPA. The bottom line is that you can’t split into divisions in an IFPA-sanctioned event before any meaningful games have been played. Every time there is a division split, between 10% and 50% of the field have to advance.


#13

Correct if there are B division players who want to play A and can’t play A because of some restriction that would also mean the event isn’t open.

Everyone who wants to participate must be able to participate, simple.


#14

Yes


#15

Ok thx. This was extremely helpful!