Disqualification and WPPRs

Of course I was not there to witness this or see the severity of the infraction. However, I would just like to say that from my experience both as a player and as a TD, any crazy action like kicking, shoving sideways, slamming back against the wall, glass hitting, etc. is best handled with a warning. Then the player is put on notice that this is not acceptable and a second offense would lead to a game DQ, match DQ, or tourney DQ depending on the situation. Players do get intense and do FORGET that their actions are seen by others, including people not into the pinball or tournament scene. I’m absolutely not condoning this behavior, I’m just saying it’s best to give warning first, then punishment.

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:heart: :heart: :heart: I really need to up my hypotheticals game.

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Agree 100%. Unless the guy kicked the leg with steel toed boots and bent the leg, a warning.

I’m not the type to have an outburst, but I get that other folks do. It’s competition. The games can generally handle it. I’ve seen my own games shoved around in competition plenty of times. It bothered me at first, but not any more. Keep the leg bolts torqued down tight and there’s not much they’re going to do to the game with only their hands or feet. I’d rather have somebody shove or kick a game than drop an F bomb with kids around, which I’ve also seen.

I also agree. :slight_smile:

Its possible someone has a minor lapse of judgement and kicks a leg and a warning should be given. Most of the time they’ll be good the rest of the event.

What if say they are good for one outburst per tournament? Fair game still? Assume it a local monthly and the same person is doing uncalled for stuff every month but only once per month? That gets old quick imo.

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My opinion was directed at a larger PAPA type event. If someone kicks a leg at our local barcade, they’ll get a warning, if they do it again, they’ll get banned from the establishment.

Okay. We’re in agreement there then. Just curious as my only experience being TD is monthly tournaments where it’s the same crew for the most part.

I don’t think it’s out of the question to expect the same maturity from pinball players as is expected from other similar types of competition. Whether or not the games can handle the abuse is a moot point IMO.

I fail to recall ever seeing players of pro bowling/darts/foosball/billiards take out their frustration on the equipment itself. To me it’s just a given that as grown-ups they wouldn’t, but maybe it does happen and I just don’t watch enough?

Either way, this kind of behavior seems to be relatively common and accepted amongst the competitive pinball crowd, but it’s hard to say exactly why. I’ve seen most, if not all of the players that I consider to be “the best” play in person, and have yet to see one of them kick a leg (or chair) because things didn’t go their way.

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How does for example golf deal with this? Say you’re in the lead with 1 hole to go playing the final round of the US Open and you do something so egregious that you get dq’d from the event. Surely, you won’t get to keep any ranking points because your were doing well “up to that point”? Or am I wrong?

My opinion is that the player in the Swedish example should not receive any wpprs since they were dq’d from the tournament.

Damn Swedes. Bunch of berserkers…

Wow, I am once again very surprised by the general sentiment. Shoving a machine, hard shakes, even a punch to the lock bar, I am ok with. They are elevated versions of motions you do to the machine.

There is never a reason to kick the machine. Kick the machine on purpose at an event and you should get kicked out (see what I did there). People manage to avoid kicking officials, children, people into the audience, dogs, cats. Surely they can avoid kicking a machine.

You want a warning, ok put it in the rules, warning you kick a machine, and you will be kicked out.

End rant.

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So there isn’t a hypothetical like you mention where someone did this while winning a Major with one hole to go, however, there was an issue that made the papers last year regarding Zac Blair.

Blair was disqualified by officials for breaking rule 4-3b, which stipulates if “a player’s club is damaged other than in the normal course of play rendering it non-conforming or changing its playing characteristics, the club must not subsequently be used or replayed during the round.”

He had slammed his putter against his head in anger, and it ended up becoming a non-conforming club after that point in time. The moment he used that putter after that point, the rule was broken.

Looking at the OWGR, he was still included in the results in a similar fashion to how the IFPA handles the situation:

http://www.owgr.com/en/Events/EventResult.aspx?eventid=6179

He got DQ’d during round 2, so he was listed based off of his round 1 finishing score, which put him below any players that actually finished 2 rounds, and tied with another player that withdrew from the tournament after round 1.

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I don’t think you should lump all players into the same basket. I’ve seen way more games abused on location by the general public than I’ve ever seen in competition. Including games with bent legs. Competitive pinball players usually restrain themselves. Occasionally they slip.

I also don’t think it’s fair to compare pinball to only the other bar sports. Golfers regularly throw their clubs. Baseball players sometimes break bats over their legs after striking out. Nascar drivers pretty regularly try to hurt (crash) other drivers using their car. If you or I tried that, we’d get arrested.

We should never put the games above the players. The collector community already does this. We make the games great, not the other way around.

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A[quote=“gammagoat, post:30, topic:2480”]
Shoving a machine, hard shakes, even a punch to the lock bar, I am ok with. They are elevated versions of motions you do to the machine.

There is never a reason to kick the machine…
[/quote]

There’s never a reason to punch a lock bar. If neither damages the game in any way, why is one acceptable and the other not?

Looks like that won’t be a DQ in the near future.

— Players were disqualified if they used a club that was damaged in anger. Under the proposal, they can still use it.

If there are no rubber feet and the tilt allows it, then this should not be a warning imo. Its a problem with how the machine is setup for the tournament. Dont want people to “move” machines? Set the tilt tight, as in Danish Pinball Open last year…jesus christ. Just gotta adapt :slight_smile:

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The difference is I think there probably are valid reasons to punch the lock bar, or at least indistinguishable from a punch. It is the main point we use to transfer energy from our hand to the machine. I nudge with the heel of my hand, I can do that with an open hand or closed fist. I don’t want to have a rule about what part of my hand can be used, or the shape of my grip.

As far as I know, nudging by kicking the legs or cabinet is not a standard or accepted practice. Although, I could imagine a player slapping the side of the cabinet with a foot, but I think the loss of balance makes it less useful. Now that I think about it, I think I have seen someone in an arcade do a bang back by kicking the machine. But I have a personal opinion, not actually supported by the current rules that feet should not touch the machine unless for the special accessibility case.

Heck, Stern Star Trek literally says “punch it” on the lock bar.

I recently repaired a Pin-Bot owned by a player who side-swipes the left leg of the machine regularly as a way of assisting in slide-saves. That particular leg had become so wobbly and loose, she had to make a “no nudging” rule for fear of it’s collapse. New bolts and bracket fixed this, but the point is that enough kickin’ actually can cause damage.

I think it makes a lot of sense to keep comparisons close to other table games:

Pinball machine - not generally player-owned
Pool table - not generally player-owned
Dart board - not generally player-owned. The darts themselves are too small to break over your knee, which is why real men take up archery
Foosball table - not generally player owned

Broken bat - Player/team-owned equipment
Tossed golf club - Player-owned equipment
Race car - Lol! Not to mention boxing or MMA! Should I be ducking haymakers while trying to focus on a cradle separation?

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Still curious if this player will be allowed back next year due to his conduct … @Svall?

Since the next Swedish Championship will be held at another place and directed by other ppl it technicaly isn’t about being allowed back. Svall should not have anything to say about that unless he’s directing the tournament and even if he would be, it would be an unusually hars decision and IMO not proportionate to the offence.

bah… make 'em putt with a 5-iron if they wreck their putter.

Also, golfers tearing up their own equipment isn’t the same as pinball players beating on other folks’ games. What is the PGA tour punishment for slamming a putter head 3" into the green and leaving a hole?