WPPR v6.0 sneak peek . . .

[Oz314]

@pinwizj

The proof will ultimately be shown through the stats for next year. If the breaking of this trust is such a huge issue for a large amount of the player base, we will see participation rates decrease. If we see this

I don’t think you will see participation rates decrease, not in the aggregate. Two reasons.

One, and probably more important, is that pinball tournaments and pinball are in an upswing overall, a large secular trend. Large enough to more than erase any decreased participation due to a few people trying to adapt to your sudden rules changes. And I believe that the upward trend is increasing.

Two, these penalties only target a small portion of the players. So I don’t think there’s enough people negatively affected to even move the needle.

I already know that everyone that gets a boost from this is automatically and enthusiastically for it. So if you were choosing who to target so as to minimize the number of angry people, you chose well. Hah!

I’m mad, but even I’m not seriously contemplating quitting completely.

I do think participation will drop for some though. I say that as a fact because it is a fact among a very small sample set of 4 people, myself and 3 local pinball friends.

I just deleted words about WHY I am altering my schedule and not just trusting you and going on as before, right now I just want to convey the data.

Friends 1 & 2 are impacted more harshly than I am. Both of them are angry and are cutting back on tournaments. One of them told me their plan was to cut out the little weekly events but stick with the larger ones.

Friend 3 gains a bunch under the new formula. He is cutting back on larger events, as in I saw him in DE a few times last season but won’t this year. He’s not sure of all the details of this new system but he doesn’t want to get caught up in any penalties.

I’m looking at the math and decided I need to raise my efficiency average for the rest of the year. So I have to cut the large events and stay local, or stay where the numbers tend to be in my favor.

That means I’m cutting my June trip to D82 first. There’s almost no chance I crack 10% efficiency there, even if I do squeak out a few wpprs that would be taken away later. It made sense to go before, when there was only upside.

I’m also cutting out Pickled Egg in VA, I never do well there, it’s usually just a social event for me but those are now out.

I’m cutting the DE Collective until my efficiency rating average makes it worth the risk. That’s the first place I’ll go back to once/if my efficiency ever grows enough.

I’ve gone to Pintastic NE, White Rose, and Expo in Chicago before, but that’s all out now. I just can’t justify the time and expense when I’m very likely just hurting my efficiency by going. It’s just doesn’t sound like any fun anymore once the negatives are factored in.

I’m staying local for now, where my cost is minimal and I stand a better chance of keeping any wpprs I earn.

You have already said more than once that your goal is no longer to drive increased participation. OK, I hear you. I wanted to share what I know some people are doing anyway.

You’ll surely see another large jump in participation, there will be plenty of new players at all of those events to take our places, and they won’t be near the top 1000 and won’t raise objections to anything either, so everything is good.

I do wonder about the participation of the specific players negatively affected by this. It would be interesting to track their participation separately from the rest. I bet a plurality of them don’t change their behavior at all.

[Oz314]

@diehardpinball

instead of trying to manipulate a rating system to get yourself there

In the IFPA, the rating system manipulates YOU!

[pinwizj]

@Oz314

I’m looking at the math and decided I need to raise my efficiency average for the rest of the year. So I have to cut the large events and stay local, or stay where the numbers tend to be in my favor.

Let’s revisit in December and see how this strategy worked out for you.

[Frisbez]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Eff% works if you think that solely focusing on small local events is going to help you increase it enough to make playing at D82 or the Delaware collective worth any more or less for you.

You could play a million tournaments against your dog and and a toddler and win every single one so that your efficiency is 100%. Your rank will still not be high because those tournaments won’t be worth hardly any points. At some point you have to risk your Eff% by playing in the bigger tournaments that matter if you want your rank to go up.

Also my WPPRs under 6.0 went down. I’m penalized! Except…my rank actually went up from 88-61…turns out that there are folks who are above me currently who might just be that high more because of the amount they play as opposed to actual consistent results.

[Sychie]

I am dropping 140 spots or so and i completely understand, as i have had an advantage of being able to go to D82, yes its a 12hr drive. But i definitely have more opportunity then a lot of people. and this system makes a lot of sense to me. The only issue i see that was mentioned before, is with EFF% and if you go to a tournament with lets say the top 100 players, it is going to be a lot more difficult to achieve a good EFF% then a large local scene with not as many well ranked players. I do think eventually the quality of players you are playing against should be taken into consideration for EFF%, but i know @pinwizj mentioned they hope to account for that at a later date. hopefully sooner rather then later. but i understand it’s a lot of math and it is all volunteer time

A lot of complaints I am seeing are about more casual events or formats that people will not do well in or when they know they will not play well (I wish i knew that). I think the best solution for those concerns instead of not attending (because we are all in this for the fun!). People could just use a different name or alternate profile when entering the tournament. Then they can either have a fresh start on their IFPA profile or have an alternate profile for those days before they enter a tournament and know they won’t win. I am not sure if that is an option or is allowed @pinwizj, but it seems like the simplest option to me instead of boycotting an event. Then they can even compete against themselves for ifpa and see if their serious profile does better then their casual profile.

Just food for thought

[ScoutPilgrim]

@Sychie

A lot of complaints I am seeing are about more casual events or formats that people will not do well in or when they know they will not play well (I wish i knew that). I think the best solution for those concerns instead of not attending (because we are all in this for the fun!). People could just use a different name or alternate profile when entering the tournament. Then they can either have a fresh start on their IFPA profile or have an alternate profile for those days before they enter a tournament and know they won’t win. I am not sure if that is an option or is allowed @pinwizj, but it seems like the simplest option to me instead of boycotting an event. Then they can even compete against themselves for ifpa and see if there serious profile does better then their casual profile.

“Smurfing” (having alternate profiles to play for-fun/at a lower ranking) is already such a widespread issue in the gaming community. I would not want to see it come to pinball.

[yancy]

@Sychie

People could just use a different name or alternate profile when entering the tournament.

[wins tournament] Oh hey, TD, you know what, I put the wrong name down. I’m not Robert Smith, I’m Bob Smith.

[Oz314]

Yes please! A direct experiment appeals to me. If I can’t raise my efficiency (fast enough) while still accumulating enough wpprs to at least tread water in rank, my strategy has failed.

Oooo, now you have my interest. I obviously think I’m right, but if I’m proved wrong I want to know and will change strategies again.

Doing this publicly with you feels a little bit like a high stakes bet. I am eager to see how this turns out.

I also note that we’re no longer talking about how I think 6.0 is unfair, instead I’m now eagerly live experimenting with my own record on the best strategy to exist within the new rules. Hah! Well done.

[Sychie]

I guess it didn’t come across completely obvious, but i was being a bit facetious . The main thing i am wondering is how all these people know when they are going to play well and not well. Because that seems to be one of the biggest concerns i see.

[Sychie]

I was thinking that exact same thing

[Oz314]

So, if you are in the 88-61 rank range, my strategy would not work for you. You need to earn too many wpprs to stay there.

But we are pretty far apart on the rankings, and I think it might work way down here in the 700s. I think I only need to earn 5-10 wpprs for it to land on my top 20.

These local events aren’t that small, I run one monthly that gets about 40 people and the winner earns 30 wpprs. So there’s enough points for me around here. At least to see if I can get myself to a more useful efficiency number.

Obviously it tops out at some point. But I think there’s room where I am at. We shall see!

[ectobar]

Laughing at this thread is killing my work eff %
My 2025 raise is going to be crap

[bghenson23]

To optimize your strategy, I’d recommend going with higher TGP events. 200% TGP events that are local are more likely to give you the WPPR numbers you might desire. A 5th or 6th at MOM’s league would probably hit your card and do well for your eff.

[Zeus]

I think a lot of people who are upset about ranking and where they “should be” is skewed by one thing, you don’t know how “good” you really are. I’m more than sure I can point out flaws in flipper skills, consistency and game knowledge.

It’s the same logic as someone who has played for awhile and goes “wow I’m playing worse”. You’re not, you just can now see the flaws in your play since you got better. Consistency is a skill and should be measured.

Anyone who is ranked lower than me and thinks they deserve “better” I open challenge them to a best of 7. I’ll come to you and play on your home court I don’t care. I’ll take anyone better than me too

Mathematically this system makes sense. I just want fair competitive rankings, not “I should be this”.

[TheRealEdDK]

@pinwizj

As I mentioned earlier, and will continue to mention to stop misinformation from spreading . . .

The WPPRtunity stat has nothing to do with how often you play pinball. That calculation is based on two things:

1. WPPR points on your top 20 card
2. Your Eff%

So again, the number of tournaments you played in or the amount of WPPR’s you actually had a chance to earn are NOT included in this statistic. We’ll say it again again just to be clear, “it looks like play less pinball” is 100% incorrect. The amount of pinball you play has NOTHING to do with this stat.

I think the key to the common misunderstanding are these parts:

@pinwizj

We will be calculating what we consider to be a reasonable amount of play that is acceptable for a top 1000 player. Players will continue to be allowed to play as much as they would like, however players that play in excess of this reasonable amount will see an adjustment made to their total WPPR points earned towards their world ranking.

@pinwizj

STEP 2 → Defining what a reasonable level of “WPPRtunity” is for players in the top 1000
We will be calculating this WPPRtunity metric for every player in the top 1000, finding an average across those top 1000 players. This average will be where the line is drawn with respect to what we consider a reasonable level of access and opportunity for players to compete.

I am not a math wizard, so the calculation process isn’t really clear to me. And it seems like a lot of other people have a hard time understanding exactly what it means, since you have to state that AMOUNT of play doesn’t affect ANYTHING.

Could you try to explain in a much simpler way what the WPPRtunity metric and excess play means for all of us that apparently doesn’t fully get it yet?

[TheRealEdDK]

@Oz314

I’m in the DC area, and I have access to a ton of tournaments. I play 1-3 events most weeks, but I also turn down another 1-3 events. I’m only attending half of what I could. So it feels inaccurate to be tagged as someone playing too much.

Imagine living in areas that would be happy to have 6 events a YEAR!

[Shaub]

@Oz314

Two, these penalties only target a small portion of the players. So I don’t think there’s enough people negatively affected to even move the needle.

These changes “target” people in the top 1000 with more “WPPRtunities” (all of them), sure efficiency does end up factoring into it, but that’s the entire point of this change: to incorporate having more chances of earning WPPRs by using your eff % to make an adjustment. 60% of the top 1000 have no adjustment at all, and some of the biggest WPPR losers are some of the best players in the game (including Josh himself), but what they have in common is that they play at lots of huge tournaments with lots of WPPRs available to win.

A buddy of mine is hit really hard by these changes (harder than you in fact), his rank and adjusted WPPRs stand to drop quite a bit. BUT, his attitude towards these changes seems to be super positive and welcoming because it just makes sense from a “fairness” perspective. But then again, he’s a great player that doesn’t need to game the ranking system to make people think he’s a great player, his pinball playing does that for him.

I’m sorry if these comments are a bit harsh, but every reply you make to Josh’s explanations seems to be wrapped in the idea that you want your imaginary number to be higher than what the IFPA says it should be. I love seeing my number go up as well, but if it doesn’t accurately reflect the thing it’s supposed to reflect (pinball skill level compared to EVERYONE else that plays a sufficient sample size of tournaments), what’s the difference what it says? Play pinball, do your best and go from there, your IFPA rank will reflect your caliber of play. Though, I guess it’s an easy perspective for me to have because I’m not cursed with dozens of tournaments or leagues to choose from in my area in any given month.

[chuckwurt]

@TheRealEdDK

Could you try to explain in a much simpler way what the WPPRtunity metric and excess play means for all of us that apparently doesn’t fully get it yet?

The more you play in medium to large events and win, your rank goes up. The more you play in medium to large events and lose, your rank goes down.

The less you play, your rank could go down or become stagnant. But it probably won’t go up unless COVID shuts the world down again.

[pinwizj]

@TheRealEdDK

Could you try to explain in a much simpler way what the WPPRtunity metric and excess play means for all of us that apparently doesn’t fully get it yet?

The WPPRtunity metric is a made up stat.

It looks at your WPPR total (say 500 WPPR’s).

It looks at your Eff% (say 20%).

It goes, if this person is pulling in ‘on average’ 20% of the WPPR’s available at every event they play in, it would take this person 2500 WPPR’s worth of play to generate a top 20 card that is 500 WPPR’s.

Let’s use me as an example. My WPPRtunity value is 2877.05. Again this stat doesn’t do anything other than estimate the amount of WPPR’s I needed to play in to generate the 982.80 WPPR’s I currently have on my card. Based on me averaging 34.16% of the WPPR’s available at every event I play in . . .that’s where the 2877.05 comes from.

The number of WPPR’s worth of points available that I’ve actually played in over the past 3 years . . . 3572.63.

The number of WPPR’s worth of points I’ve actually earned (including events not in my top 20) . . . 1220.41.

When I say that amount of play doesn’t impact things, maybe this example will show why.

Let’s say I play in DOUBLE the amount of events I play in (so now I’ve played in 7,145.26 available WPPR’s worth).

Let’s say during that DOUBLE the amount of play, I rack up another 1220.41 WPPR’s (so now I have a total of 2,440.82 active WPPR’s in my account).

Let’s say I didn’t post ANY better results for my top 20 card. All I did was play DOUBLE the amount of pinball.

My Eff% would be (2440.82 / 7,145.26) . . . 34.16%.

My WPPR total on my would be . . . 982.80.

I played MORE . . . A LOT MORE . . .and the impact on what that did to my ranking did not change.

All we’re looking at is consistency of play between your top 20 events, and your non top 20 events.

If I play at exactly the same rate of quality that I’m playing now, I can play as much as I want. It’s like a diet where you can eat nothing but chocolate and not gain any weight!

That’s about the best way I can walk through this and explain it. If that still doesn’t make any sense I’ll need some better feedback as to what part doesn’t make sense.

[Oz314]

Hi Shaub. You have misinterpreted my comments then. Very simply, I don’t think taking wpprs away after the fact via a hard to understand formula is the right thing to do.

I’m 100% against this change being backdated.

Did I think I was going to change Josh’s mind by posting? I did not. But I couldn’t just stay silent either. As of this change apparently I am a “professional” pinball player (imagine!), so I should be allowed to speak my mind about it right?

I could have done so more privately, but I’m posting here even knowing there’s abuse coming my way because here everyone can see Josh’s answers and maybe he won’t have to repeat himself.