Since we are on this topic again, what is the player responsibility on BBH elk multiball with multiple balls in shooter lane. Are they stuck, or is the fact the if i stop hitting and relighting elk it will eventually pull the elk in enough?
I feel like twitch makes for a unique aspect of tournament pinball,where multiple people can see and interpret a game live as it happens. Clearly different interpretations should be expected. As we all know it’s usually tough for opponents and players alike to always know when a ball is stuck. We’ve all certainly taken a few shots and grabbed some points before realizing an so trying to trap up. Makes being the TD determining intent to be quite stressful. I 100% agree that knowledge of the rule to be irrelevant. I also think trying to judge someone’s intent to not be a fair way to govern since it will give an advantage to someone who can always say I had no clue if caught cheating. Tim makes a good point but like Josh said exploitation not only loses pinball karma but adds you to a list of lesser integrity and word spreads around. I won’t name names but there are people I know to watch closer as an opponent or a director. For all intensive purposes regardless of words like shouldn’t -may or have to -most players know the right thing to do. Cayle is right opponents should be able to say calmly hey you have a stck ball. Aerosmith being new I would inherently not blame a player or a viewer as much for making a mistake regarding game state. Consider tim only truly thought he was pointing out an issue at a high level event I hardly feel like it’s something to be all too sorry about, and im glad he sparked this convo. Reminds me of bowen feeling Zen exploited avatar at Buffalo and it resulted in a healthy discussion. Similiar and different scenarios. Ultimately Tim is right there’s is technically not a great reason (in terms of immediate consequences) for someone to trap; hopefully most players care more about their credibility and how others view them not winning at any cost.
Kinda wish I’d read this thread earlier – played Aerosmith for the first time tonight in a tournament, and was confused when I landed in the above situation, so I trapped up. My opponent noticed my confusion and explained what was up to me, but I only managed to get my attention back on the game in time to see the ‘missing’ ball drop from the toy box and down the drain. Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I suppose.
That’s giving way too much credit to crappy Lonnie Ropp copy-n-paste code 
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Just for clarity on Aerosmith, factory settings do NOT have Virtual Locks enabled for Toys in the Attic. Thus, it is normal and part of the game for balls to physically lock in the Toy Box as part of – and during – Toys MB.
At Nationals/Women’s Worlds/Pin-Masters, the TD’s elected to enable Virtual Locks for the Toybox. The Toybox lid doesn’t open… ever. You can still get 2x (and more?) scoring during MB similar to how MET Pro handles it: you shoot the Lock lane, 2x scoring kicks in, but no physical ball lock that I know of.
There’s a theory that when Toys Virtual locks are enabled that the software compensates by having the Elevator shot physically lock a ball during Toys MB. I’m not sure if this is true, because I haven’t seen any video yet to support this.
Elevator does not lock balls during toys. Zoe’s ball was stuck on the one way gate in front of the scoop.
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Why would you disable a strategic part of the game rather than just play one player games?
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Because . . . shut up 
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Wow I would never have even thought about this rule in World Cup final but clearly it’s a violation as the rule is written. I always stop plunging once I get 2 or 3 balls on the playfield (even with faster scoring for Germany I think reducing the traffic for the goal shots is worth it) but I guess that’s an illegal strategy in tournament play?
Seems like the rule should have an exception for machines where this state can be achieved though normal play/operation (ie, no airballs or malfunctions) such as WCS and Pinbot.
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Yeah I think if it’s a wizard mode that is unlimited ball save for X amount of time this rule shouldn’t apply.
It is worth a read through this thread from a year ago, the last time we argued about this rule.
For sure, I don’t see why not. On Pinbot, no way. Aside from extending ball time averages by too much, this would also allow for a cheat that in itself would probably have to warrant it’s own rule.
I don’t understand. Can you say what ruling was made and why? Did the TD think the elevator locked a ball but found out later it was actually stuck?
I was watching the stream and it appeared the elevator kicked the ball out immediately when she drained. But it could have come out at exactly that moment for other reasons.
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I was watching the stream as it happened, and it looked like the ball was locked in the elevator. We were discussing whether this was the case because we disabled the Toy Box, etc. The ruling there was ‘play on’ . . . mostly because we didn’t have enough data/experience with the game to understand whether it was a stuck ball or not.
I can’t remember if at that point was when I went over to unstick the ball from behind the gate, or if that was another point in time, but we definitely had an issue with balls getting stuck behind that one way gate (which is why we ultimately decided to remove the gate for the rest of the tourney/Pinmasters).
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Ooo, how does not plunging on Pinbot allow for an cheat?? (asking for a friend 
) If there is a specific bug/exploit on a game then I think there should indeed be a dedicated rule to address it. As for ball time averages, there are other ways to reduce those without requiring a player to manually take action to bypass a standard feature of the game.
Applying a ‘Beneficial Malfunction’ rule to a situation that occurs during normal play of a machine just seems extremely counter-intuitive and against the implied intent of the rule.
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Shoot the ramp with the other ball, nudge the ball in the plunger lane to trigger the plunger switch, vortex multiplier increases by 1X.
If the ball on the ramp looks like it’s heading into the plunger lane as well, fire off a skill shot before that 2nd ball lands in the plunger lane.
If it doesn’t, you get the free vortex bump without having to do anything. Shoot the ramp again, repeat process.
I’ll usually start plunging skill shots at 600,000 to try and cash in at 600,700,800,900 and the million. Once it rolls over, go back to bumping it up to get through the lower values easily.
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Good way to put it. Although only games with auto-plunger have ball saver during multiball.
It is a bit tricky, because the stuck ball rules have to cope with, not only ball finding usual paths of travel and places to lay to rest, but also games having glitches in game logic or malfunctions. Unstable auto-plunger switch or actuation for instance.
Perhaps a way to simplify the rules, actually, would be to use more game specific statements. In order not to rewrite the general rules when ever it is found that it has a mouse hole for this particular game. Or exceptions like World Cup final.
This is part of my amendment to IFPAPA. Agreed. With respect.
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Maverick final mode would like a word with you. 
I am sure, I will cherish my debut game on a Maverick pin as soon as it comes to me.
My point exactly. There are always exceptions.