A lot of the Classics games we used this year came from other sources or presented difficulties which made EBs unable to be turned off for whatever reason. We prefer to be consistent in such things as much as possible, so since “all off” wasn’t an option, “all on” was the answer. A few games would have played far too long “on”, so we made a few exceptions where we could. We also found a few of the games mysteriously resetting to default settings during the event, so even if we chose to make a game an exception, it didn’t always seem to stick from what I’m told. We didn’t feel having “plunge EBs” on all the games would work, since several lacked lights for all 5 ball in play counters - - players and scorekeepers wouldn’t always notice a stray EB (or at least we couldn’t be certain they always would). Without access to the Banning games for weeks ahead to sort everything like that out, we ended up improvising more than anticipated. During the playoffs, it’s much easier to enforce the plunge rules.
Jim and Jay may be able to chime in further on this.
Saturday night we were def a bit light on volunteers but hey thanks to the FGC event next door I was able to draft my friend into scorekeeping haha
For scenario #2 I def would be like “Nah, you just gotta git gud so you’re not in this situation” (but in a nicer way). I’m pretty sure I’ve said the same thing when someone asked why I tried hard in TMP when I couldn’t make it even with a 1st (not like they weren’t gonna be in like a 5+ way tie break even if they finished 1st).
Curious, can I ask my friend to turn in a card that helps me? Like “Hey man that cards helps me so submit it if you can?” Or is that considered collusion?
I thought only your best card counts?
In PAPA style/ticket format/card format, yes only your best card counts, but every card you submit is ranked and listed against your other scores.
With that format, you will often see players’ names in multiple positions on a game’s score ranking list, whereas is Herb Style/Best Game format, a player’s name only appears once as their top score.
Think of it as different players chuckwurt1 chuckwurt2 chuckwurt3 etc. Yes, it is still you but the ranking system treats each submission separately.
So what if I’m the top 24 positions because I did that many and did that well and didn’t void anything?
In theory, yes you can occupy the top N positions on any particular game, however you only have one overall composite score for say the ranking of the top 24 for the finals.
(Edit: Trying not to deviate too much from the thread topic. Maybe a separate thread for discussion of how the PAPA/Card/Ticket format works is an idea)
I see. Thanks for the help. Seems silly to count multiple game scores for a ticket that isn’t used, but I’m sure it’s been thought over many times.
And this discussion is definitely pertinent to the #2 situation above. If your best ticket only matters to game standing and overall standing, doesn’t the #2 issue go away?
So what happens when players collude?
they should be DQed? and maybe even have the scores wiped out?
"Any form of cheating, including game restarts, tampering with games, tampering with recorded results, scorekeeper intimidation or collusion, or anything else not covered here, will be addressed by Tournament Officials as appropriate, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament.
Any collaborative effort between players in an attempt to unfairly affect the outcome of the competition, or to “lockout” a third player, or to otherwise refrain from making the best possible competitive effort on each and every game played, will be looked upon very poorly by Tournament Officials, and may result in disciplinary action, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament."
Unfortunately, that rule is very difficult to enforce, and the fuzzy “looked upon very poorly” and “may result in…” clauses don’t help.
I agree. I think it should probably say something more like…
…to otherwise refrain from making the best possible competitive effort on each and every game played can result in disciplinary action, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament.
I disagree with that as a rule.
Sometimes losing on purpose gives yourself a better advantage towards winning the tournament, which is the overall goal.
(See previous example of a tiebreaker round at Free Play Florida where Brian Dominy and myself had a one game playoff. The winner would be placed in the objectively much harder group. We both attempted to forfeit the match to be placed in the easier group)
Our interpretation focuses on a player doing something for the benefit of another player and not themselves. That’s where the line is when it comes to collusion becoming a player conduct issue we would act on.
I don’t really have an opinion as to whether it’s a good rule or not, but I do think having something that implies the disciplinary action may only be ‘TD folds their arms and nods disagreeably’ is an odd thing to put in the ruleset.
This is the most common result I’ve seen regarding any player conduct issues over the last 30 years that I’ve played 
I agree with this. Not just losing on purpose but maybe to get an “easier” opponent in the group to move on. For example, maybe I only need one point to advance in the group, but if player 4(Lower ranked person who’s been playing well) wins they move on instead of player 3(Top 25 player in the world that Ive seen). So I get enough to pass Player 3 but not at my full ability to pass player 4. I’m ok with that and wouldn’t call it collusion.
In this solo sport I always believe that I myself is the biggest factor no matter the odds. I have won games with scores I should have never won with, I have lost games with scores I should have never lost with. But that’s pinball, just you vs the machine really.
But other rules may say no no to that / you can’t make it flagrant
That happened at the olympics and the players got disqualifications.
Now attempted to forfeit??
that set’s an very bad setting do you have to play? can you say I don’t want to play?
Can you just tilt out?
slam tilt / power down the game to get an ZERO?
play out of turn on purpose to get an ZERO?
Yes. Scenario: You vs me 2 out of 3 games for a finals. You blew up game one, killed it. I have a long grind ahead of me. Do I expend the energy on this grind? The mental fortitude? Myself knowing that it would be exhausting after this day. Or, do I forfeit in that way to just move on to the next game to save my energy.
In theory, the only one I’m hurting is myself since you still got the win and I “threw my chance” away. But who is to say that me forfeiting to save my energy isn’t the best play? I know I’m not going to chase that, so I save my mental endurance to fight harder on game 2 and 3. That would still be me playing to the best of MY ability.
giving up mid game is one thing but forfeiting an ROUND is an other.
But when the rules state
Any form of cheating, including game restarts, tampering with games, tampering with recorded results, scorekeeper
intimidation or collusion, or anything else not covered here, will be addressed by Tournament Officials as
appropriate, including disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament.
Any collaborative effort between players in an attempt to unfairly affect the outcome of the competition, or to “lock
out” a third player, or to otherwise refrain from making the best possible competitive effort on each and every game
played, will be looked upon very poorly by Tournament Officials, and may result in disciplinary action, including
disqualification and/or ejection from the tournament
That kind of makes it iffy to do. So is there an CLEAR rule saying it’s ok?
What if I want to lose the round and get an easier opponent and the other player wants to win say they like the game / etc that they will play when winning? Is that collusion? even when you don’t want to win the round?
What about a player deliberately losing to eliminate themselves in favor of someone else? Is that collusion?