Was this a death save?


#41

Need to make an exception for WOZ. On a left outlane, it is very possible to hold up the left flipper and nudge the game to get action from the popbumper, with the hope the last kick fires the ball out to the right, off the top of the center post and back into play. Has happened twice to me, and certainly not a deathsave or bangback. No movement of the machine outside of pop-nudging.


#42

Don’t worry, any tournament worth it’s salt has the center post pulled :wink:


#43

Agreed on both. At Clepin classics, I had Stingray power outlane hard enough that the game performed a self-bangback. I sat there hands at my side and head down looking dejected when all of a sudden the ball banks up onto my flipper! Weird things happen in pinball and we have to keep those in account (as long as they’re legal).


#44

what if a ball drains out the right outlane quickly (or even a middle drain) and is moving up the left side of the drain towards a kickback? I’ve seen those hit the kickback and fire back into play. That’s legal right?

Though if the player tries to slide the machine to the right to get it to reach the kickback that would be illegal?


#45

Never seen a rule-set address a death-kick.


#46

This happened Monday night once where I was able to upward nudge the drained ball from the right outlane to tickle the kickback switch on DE Star Wars. It tilted, but if it didn’t tilt I’m guessing I would have been DQ’d anyway


#47

The video doesn’t tell you enough to rule a drath save. One it’s “on the cheap” home made twitch steaming so good luck with the alignment Of images and even so on two camera angles the game appears not to move at all.


#49

Bingo. Deliberate player action. It’s on him that he coincidentally makes a move at the precise time that the ball smacks into the metal. We don’t know if it would have lazereth’d without his movement. The point is he made a move, he tried, at precisely the right time for it to affect the ball’s path. His left shoulder (and footage of the playfield) make a marked move. Deliberate cheating or just a deliberate foolish move, he made the choice, and I would DQ in any similar circumstances.


#50

All that from a limited-view potentially out-of-sync video feed? Brutal.


#51

Wouldn’t this all be far simpler if we set machines to appropriate tilt levels and just let people play, instead of (over)analyzing recorded video after the fact? The more I see this topic (and similar) the more I’m inclined to feel like the player should be able to play until they tilt or the ball is actually in the trough.

If there’s a fear that that will encourage people to take a shot “just in case,” then engaged TDs can spot moves in real time and give warnings for egregious efforts.


#52

Indeed, @unsmith. I’ve never understood why so many people are opposed to letting the machine be the judge, jury, and executioner… I mean, that’s what these games are designed to do. Unless there’s an actual malfunction (and I don’t think anyone is arguing there was a malfunction in this instance) or blatant cheating (I’m thinking “rare earth magnet” territory)… roll with whatever happens. That’s pinball.


#53

How do you deal with death saves being legal for FSPA and the issue I posted earlier about sliding games into other games?

Curious if there’s any form of “interference” rule in the FSPA rules if you slide a game far enough attempted a death save that it makes contact with the neighboring machine or player.

I know at one point years ago IFPA staff was discussing the usage of an “out of bounds” rule. We would tape a 4" X 4" square that the legs would be set in. It would be the player’s responsibility to make sure their ball ended with all 4 legs within their marked boundaries. Similar to the rubber feet rule, a player would be DQ’d if the machine was out of bounds for the next player stepping up. Outside of that . . . “anything goes” with respect to bang backs, death saves, etc.


#54

Offside, you are out of there!


#55

FSPA rules, like most other rulesets, currently disallow death saves (penalty = DQ). I happen to disagree with that, but I’m not the only one who gets a say in FSPA rules.

To clarify, my comment about letting the machine be judge/jury/executioner pertains to what happens under the glass of that machine. Player errors that the machine can’t be reasonably expected to judge – e.g. playing out of turn, physically interfering with (or being interfered by) someone on a different machine, etc – certainly call for TD rulings.


#56

Not specifically, but if I was still running a league here I would do the following:

First, it would be considered Interference under section 4.3 of the FSPA rules (http://www.fspazone.org/complete-rules/#Illegal). Sliding a machine into another while a player is playing would almost certainly affect that player and ball, so that’s an easy ruling to make. Interference in our system is also classed as a Serious Violation, so the offender is getting a machine score of zero (our version of a DQ) for that action, and the affected player gets compensation.

Worth noting is the affect this has on other players on the shoved machine - if it’s now wonky to the point of being unplayable, it might need to be tilted to be put back in place, which would certainly result in a compensation ball for the affected player. If the other machine is also no longer playable, maybe due to the machines being physically touching at this point or otherwise “no room” to play, I would hold that group until the shoved machine is put back in place.

In any event, the person doing a shove of that magnitude is going to get a stern talking to about it, and repeated Serious Violations carry stiffer and stiffer penalties, up to and including ejection from league.


#57

What would happen if a player injures themself doing the deathsave and then sues the machine owner or the Tourney Directors / Facility if they are made legal?


#58

What would happen under the current rules if a player gets repetitive stress injuries from playing and then sues the machine owner and/or TD and/or facility?

Personally, I have much more sympathy for wanting to DQ death saves due to some slight possibility of damaging the machine than any risk of damaging the player.

IANAL.


#59

That’s why we have location play. Where the game is the judge, jury and executioner. When you organize a sport, there will always be rules some won’t like. Doesn’t matter the sport.

Selfie leagues are no doubt the purest form of the sport we have going now. No witnesses, just a pic. The only thing keeping it from being 100% pure is no death saves allowed in the playoffs.

I figured out a while ago that GC scores on location are worth far more to me than any WPPR’s will ever be worth. The one with the most GC scores on location wins. For the record, I was never good at death saves, so I pretty much gave up trying.


#60

Player: “Judge Judy, I intentionally smashed a multi-hundred-pound hunk of wood and metal with my bare palm and hurt myself. Even though I did this on my own, it’s clearly someone else’s fault. Damages, please!”

Judge Judy: insert pithy quote here as gavel descends in favor of defendant


#61

It’ll never get that far…


insurance will pay it out because its cheaper and faster