Toxic Behavior Continues in 2019

Exactly as he apparently felt his actions were inappropriate. If the same occurred to me, my response would be, “I’m sorry that you were offended.” and I would move on. I’m not going to have a conversation about it. It’s not my belief that is offensive or “unsportsmanlike” like. They blew off steam, didn’t direct anything at any one individual or provoke violence towards the game, venue or person.

You know what is unsportsmanlike that I see EVERY event I go to that goes by without yellow cards or conversations most of the time. Not being ready at the machine when it is your time. Why is him saying a curse word and storming off after his game something to appoligize about but having to be chased down to play your turn not at the same level?

Let’s talk double standards. Sexism seems to be a common one the community wont tolerate for which I 100% agree to. So, how about women’s tournaments, leagues and finals. Yes, I know this isn’t going to be a popular comment but it needs to be said to show the double standards that we bring on ourselves. Their is nothing in pinball that makes a man better than a woman. In actually women tend to have better reaction times so one could argue the advantage goes to the women. Some may argue strength to move a machine but in a properly set up game a large man all the way down to a 10 year old child could tilt the game (my 9 year old daughter can and she weighs 45 pounds) so I don’t consider that an "advantage. Under this premise isn’t having women only finals not sexism by definition? Or women only leagues and tournaments? Most would agree that if it was men only that would be offensive, right? How about (fill in the race) only events. That would be offensive, so why the double standards when their doesn’t need to be a distinction as everyone has the same ability to succeed regardless of race, sex, religion, etc.

Sexism - “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, on the basis of sex.”

Yes, I know why we have them, for which I’m generally OK with, except when the pot for those finals comes from the main pot (I shouldn’t pay into something I can’t participate into) but this goes deeper into what we are talking about. Just as you may feel that me saying S*&^T or F&^%K is offensive, the above can be offensive to people as well. So, why the double standard?

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I’m just going to say that if you google the word sexism you get, “prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.”

Which it seems like you purposely removed the typically against women, which kind of proves the whole point of why there should be women’s leagues and tournaments.


The distinction is there to encourage more women to play. We don’t have a problem with a low percentage of men playing. I agree sex gives no competitive advantage.

Yes, I removed it because it’s “typically” against women. Not fully, 100%. Which actually proves my point even more.

It’s like the word Racism. Their is no such thing as reverse racism (though many believe their is and use it), their is just racism. Just like sexism. It’s goes, well I would say, both ways but in it can be used against trans as well. Sexism is the difference of treatment towards a specific sex.

Wanted to add, this isn’t about sexual harassment which is also often times confused with sexism. Those are very different.

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Fully agree and understand that portion. That is why I mentioned I know why it is their. But in truth it is a double standard when the rules state someone will not tolerate sexism but they have separate finals for women.

I really don’t have an issue with it but it was the best example I could think of on how peoples differences in beliefs change things drastically and why we shouldn’t be posing to change someones beliefs unless we really plan on following that line by the letter of the law. It’s that line of when is your rights more important than mine type of conversation I was getting at.

But let me add this. What is the % of women in pinball. Now what is the % of specific minorities. I think that is a greater problem in pinball that needs to be solved as well. So why not finals for subsets of minorities to drive in more diversity in the sport? That would be racist though, right (I feel it would be seen that way)? So, why isn’t the same considered sexist is my point.

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No other subset has asked.

Women have asked and as far as the IFPA goes that was enough for us to do something about it.

Back in the old PAPA days my dad and Steve ran a college division to highlight that subset.


Good to know. Topic of double standards came up which made me think this was a good time for that conversation. Maybe wrong time or place but it’s still something that is an interesting conversation. For women, I fully understand it’s their to drive more women to the sport, which is great. I just always thought pinball was cool in the fact that it’s one of the few sports out their to where everyone is on the same playing field and that we could all play together in.

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I agree with you to a point…I was/am an advocate for Women’s tournaments or Women’s divisions at big tournaments. I was one of the first to try to get PAPA to have a women’s division as a way to encourage more women to play, not to separate women and men. I saw women come with their husbands or BF and not really have anything to do while they were playing but yet they were not quite comfortable enough to play in a division…I talked to Kevin and Mark way back then and told them that it wasn’t to separate but to encourage more players. It would be just like the senior or junior division and played one the same bank. Then once they had a few women’s events they would feel more comfortable in one of the main division.
Since then it has gone a bit overboard IMO. I can see some women’s leagues and women’s divisions at the bigger tournaments…I know the IFPA now has the Women’s championships so there are Women’s only tourneys to determine who competes but that doesn’t mean that there needs to be a Women’s only tournament every weekend why not just use the women’s standings from the tournaments/events that each woman competes in no matter if it is “women’s only” or not.



Women’s events exists because for … ever … women have been driven from the sport by the sexist and aggressive behavior of men. Having women’s only events allows them to define their own space, which enables the base of female players to grow and start moving towards equity in the sport and raising awareness of these issues. It is not a double-standard, and it is not sexist, because you can’t be sexist against men.

*ism exists against oppressed and minority classes. When used against the majority/oppressor class, that is not *ism, it is the implementation of justice and a move towards equity. I will not debate this point. That is the stance of this forum and our code of conduct. Anyone who wants to fight about that can take it elsewhere or do their own reading. It isn’t my job to educate you.

I don’t think anyone is trying to change anyone’s beliefs. Honestly I give zero about what you do or don’t believe. What I do care about is the rules and attitudes that exist in the spaces I create and run (like the tournaments I run and this forum.) If you want to participate in those you abide by those rules. There are plenty of forums like Pinside that I don’t participate in precisely because they don’t implement those rules. You want a space where people are free to scream and swear, not shake opponents hands, and get yellow cards for not being ready? Go nuts! I won’t attend but I’m sure lots of people will. The fact is, any implementation of any rules (including a lack of rules at all) makes someone unhappy and will gain you some people and lose you others. The real question when setting up communities is who do you want to empower and who do you want to surround yourself with? This was the number one question I asked when I setup this forum, and it is key to everything I decide to run or take ownership of in any way. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

This thread is now locked.