I 100% disagree with this, because I know more than a few a-holes in our scene that who have not been ostracized, and also have plenty of supporters. There are plenty that seem to think that some bad behavior isn’t that bad or is just so-and-so being so-and-so. That makes it tricky for sure but this ties into what other folks are saying about it being up to the TD.
I think the TD has the right to attempt to form the culture they prefer during their events. Everyone has the right to go to and not go to the events of their choosing. There are events and locations I will not go to for these reasons. There are certain folks that when I know they are going to be at a tournament, I have to think about if I want to go to that tournament. Some TDs will want to be more hands off, and some want to be more hands on with policing behavior.
At my tournaments, I make it known to all of the players that I have a certain expectation of good behavior. It basically is be kind to each other, but I will spell out the yellow card/red card system and that cards are given out at my discretion. I will outline a few examples, like don’t say racist and sexist things. Don’t touch anyone who doesn’t want to be touched. Don’t attempt to physically intimidate anyone. Don’t rage on the machines. These things won’t be tolerated. It takes two minutes, and some folks think I get a little carried away, but I want it clear that there are expectations and those who don’t live up to those expectations are gonna run into some issues. If my way of running things isn’t to anyone’s liking, they’re welcome to talk to me about it, or just not come to play. There’s plenty of events folks can play at these days.
As long as the IFPA is a decentralized entity that relies on volunteers to keep it running and growing, there’s never going to be one way of policing this stuff. This is a labor of love for all of those that giving up so much of their free time to plan and run events or create tools and software. Whether I agree with folks or not, I have massive amounts of respect for all the folks that give up their time for this hobby/sport/nerdom.
"Yeah I agree with basic conduct talk as well to help mitigate issues, but it gets tough handing out punishment unless it can be easily an objective call, like certain words that are unacceptable.
One suggestion is do what I did at home. I created a Slap Happy Bucket of Shame and made people put a $1 into it every time that hit the glass after a drain. That actually helped because everyone in the room would start hooting and hollering and the offending player would sheepishly then add a $1 to the bucket. I eventually took it down because it had its effect."
Oh yeah @alwysmooth, you know I love you buddy. I wasn’t trying to call you out, I just disagree with you’re one point about jerks getting ostracized.
There are folks who make me super uncomfortable based on past interactions, and despite these incidents being known, these folks are still welcomed in the community.
It’s just the way it goes for now. Hopefully, it’ll change sooner than later.
Yall, can we talk pinball? This thread pops up every month, with the same results. I’ll accept the reprimand of creating an off topic post because I am just so tired of these threads. They’re why I haven’t been to pinside in years, and they seem to be trending here too.
Look at every other thread on tilt. What do they have in common? The title makes it apparent the thread is about pinball. And when you get in, pinball is the topic. This is a pinball forum, not a behavioral therapy forum. Pinballers should be discussing formats, scores, wpprs, and tgp. Not arguing about how they plan to solve the world’s behavior problems.
The pattern is always the same. A very specific event happened between one player and another. The TD had inadequate cajones to address it right then and there, let the steam build, then the next day boils over with a rant on the Internet about how it ought to be all the time. The names are redacted, and the event fogged up by memory. Then comes the “be more stern” brigade. Followed by the “don’t be too stern” squad. Then the “people are always gonna be like this, relax” argument countered with “people always acting like this is no excuse for people to always act like this”. One week in, it’s just a jarbled mess of keyboard warriors talking about the subjective nature of yellowcards.
I hope you guys can solve this issue quickly, but if not, I’ll see yall next month when this topic comes up again.
Yeah I guess I was just thinking about the overall “punishment” that can be enforced or not enforced. Most of it is a judgement call, but as you saw this past Saturday, many times it takes talking to different parties separately and working things out. I think we’re mostly fortunate to not have too many a-holes in our region.
If we are going to hash this out again can we maybe try all agreeing on what is obvious at least. The last time this came up the conversation was mainly about vocal outburst scaring away people but nearly all the rebuttals were things people mutually agreed on (physical harm to games).
I’m not going to get political but we should all very clearly see in our current environment that people naturally disagree with what they feel is right and wrong. Most, if not all, of the confrontation comes from one side of an argument trying to FORCE their beliefs on another person. I’m of the opinion that people of all sides and stances have the right to their beliefs and don’t need to have strangers try and mold their moral compass for them. It’s not their job either.
Let’s just put it to bed already. If you are the TD make up the rules and make them known and enforce them fairly and evenly. Shoot in this thread we are already trying to hold people in the top 100 to a different standard of which that is where the problem starts. It doesn’t matter if you are 1 or 100000 in the world. Rules are the rules that you set forth and they should be treated equally. It’s also not up to you or me to decide what is offensive or not to someone else. Shoot, for example, I was just made aware that I offended the District manager of my home builder by asking him “how in the hell I would know the building plans changed if you didn’t tell me.” He tried to kick me out of the meeting as I cussed him and he was offended. To me Hell is not offensive but apparently to him it is. Another example: I think most people are offended by the word F&CK but most people aren’t offended by SH^T. Is it my place to judge if you should be offended? Nope… But it’s also not your place to tell me I can’t use the word either. At the end of the day, as a TD, it’s your job to make it clear what YOU find to be offensive and not tolerable. If someone comes to your event then they are making the choice to abide by YOUR rules so now it’s on them. I have zero issues with that.
Over this past year I’ve come to my own personal realization. At league events things should be tighter. It’s a better atmosphere and its their for the fun of the sport. At tournaments, things need to be more lax (obviously not physical abuse to a machine) but we should allow people emotion. Their is a lot more on the line and as such tensions are higher and they should be expected to be.
Always have, always will.
Being tolerant of others doing things we don’t like is part of living in a free society. Communicating acceptable standards and dealing fairly with situations that don’t meet those standards goes a long way towards making fun events.
How to manage the behavior and expectations of players in my scene has as much to do with pinball and my enjoyment of it as WPPRs or rulesets or maintenance or format. More, in fact, and given the frequency with which this topic comes up, I am apparently far from alone. Just because this is a people problem, doesn’t make it any more or less a pinball problem. At heart we manage communities, and communities are full of people, and peopling is tough all over. Any help or support we can supply to that I am fully in favor of
You really think there was no confusion or drama around this issue before we started talking about it? As someone who has been involved in pinball event management for multiple decades, I can pretty clearly state that this is not true.
No I’m saying I know it was there because pinball types have always been the same. They will be in the future as well. Like I said, hope you can tackle the issue in this thread once and for all.
As a newer player and TD I include the statements that players and machines are to be respected. That sexist/racist comments are an automatic red card.
We have had individual players throw things, be rude to service staff, or rage after draining. I have had private conversations with players that they are making the environment toxic and it’s not appreciated. Most apologize and have since thought about the other people stepping up after them.
Having my preteen daughter in the room helped decrease loud swearing till she did it. But I am not bothered by that as long as it’s not directed at another person.
I find the Mute Thread function very easy to use for topics I don’t care about. I’d suggest trying that before suggesting the rest of us shouldn’t discuss certain topics.
Gillie - Not calling you out so please don’t take as such. But I’m quoting as I feel it supports some concerns that have been voice.
This is proof of what Gorgar is speaking of. Every couple of months a thread like this opens up and people start talking about the same things. It then turns into 80% of the group belittling the other 20% because they have issue with being told they can’t show frustration in the form of something most consider to be minor. Then examples start coming in that nobody argues (Racist, sexist, vilence, rage titling, etc) and the circle starts all over.
In the last half a dozen of these threads you have 15 (maybe 20) speaking up. About 80% of them agree and belittle the others that vocalize displeasure in the topic or what the desired outcomes are. Their are 66,541current active players and to think that a couple dozen people on a fairly obscure forum speak for the community is what bothers some of us. This “behavior” has been going on for decades. How exactly is it killing pinball again then? Last I checked competitive pinball is blowing up you can’t even get tickets to most of the non-local barcade based tournaments anymore if you don’t sign up the day they open up. The only difference I see between a couple decades ago and today is that 20 years ago people minded their own business. Today, everyone feels they need to portray their personal beliefs onto others and if they don’t agree with their opinions they obviously are idiots.
I’ll say my last piece, as I know where this goes and I’m generally not welcomed in this topic (or heck the forum in general), and then use the mute option as suggested unless specifically called back here.
I encounter drama and stress in every facet of my life mainly because people want to force their beliefs on me. Pinball was (I used “was” on purpose) my getaway from the political bull crap of the world (both sides of the floor). I’m honestly growing sick of it and I’m not alone which is the sad part. Make all the rules you want to prevent violence, sexism, physical properly harm, etc but as long as someones actions is not directed at someone and isn’t doing physical harm to the machine or establishment then it’s not our job to police it. If they say a word that offends you or a gesture at a machine that you don’t agree with then maybe it’s time for you to use your “mute” button. Or better yet, use it as a teaching moment if you are with your kids, I do daily…The world is diverse in perspective, belief, background and opinions. If someone is not causing you physical harm or harm to personal property it is not YOUR responsibility to correct their behavior or belief.
I just thank the Lord above that snailman, yeoldpinballer, spraynard, law, etc have shown great judgement in the events they put on. They let the rules known up front, manage them equally and don’t try to overly censor their participants. If all I did was read the tilt forums and didn’t get to play in the events they put on their is no way I would ever want to be part of where this community is trying to go.
Brad - I think with new players joining this community every day we will have this as a common topic. Maybe it’s more about avoiding burnout then really nailing down a code of conduct. I am greatful that I have learned most I know from a calm collected TD that has been playing and running events for years. Some are not as lucky and this forum allows that learning from others and maybe a place to vent.
I don’t have time or want to police the tournaments for swearing or agitated grunts. Ultimately pinball is player vs machine and not player v player.
Brad, I’m not sure if we’ve ever met in person before but if we did or if you attended one of my events I feel comfortable in saying you’d add my name to the list of other TD’s you hold in high regard. I by no means want to force my beliefs or opinion onto someone else. I just want players to proactively read and follow proper player conduct as outlined in the IFPA/PAPA ruleset. We as TD’s shouldn’t need to take adults aside and warn them like they we are their parents and they’re our children. We (TD and participants) need to work together to improve and make the environment positive for both old comers and new comers to the competitive pinball scene.
The purpose of threads like these is for TDs to discuss ways to improve our handling of difficult interpersonal situations that come up within the pinball community. They will come up; as some have said upthread, that’s just life, but just because it’s going to happen in any group we decide to participate in doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strategize about how to handle something when it occurs at a pinball event. We’ve had a thread on chair spacing at events on this forum, and one on what to do when a natural disaster hits your event, so we clearly have interest in the intricate details of pinball event management.
I’ve been running pinball tournaments for years and still tweak and change my process for dealing with player conduct. It’s helpful to hear from others what they’ve tried and how successfully it has worked. Newer TDs can learn and be prepared before they ever have to deal with conduct issues, and more experienced TDs can learn about situations and edge cases that may never have come up for them. I’ve had people contact me directly asking for advice in handling complex situations, and I’m always happy to collaborate and share what I think works, but a community discussion is far more transparent and allows for different perspectives.
To keep this topic on track, let’s not debate whether or not this thread is worthwhile; those who are interested in discussing the topic can do so, and those who find it boring or annoying can mute it and move on. Thanks, all!