I kind of like “Keefer strikes” but can anyone come up with a more descriptive name?

# Thoughts on Group Knockout/Strikes format w/ 3 strikes per group?

**ryanwanger**#65

Ran one of these last night. 10 players, 8 strikes. I think it was a little under 3 hours. The finals was one with 3 strikes vs one with 7 strikes, and we played it out but it only lasted one game. It went 10 rounds.

How did we settle on calculating TGP for this format?

**pinwizj**#66

Actual number of rounds for now. If we’re able to get an EV table built for this we’ll add it to the TGP Guide down the road.

**Scribble**#72

I see it in the very top black bar, probably something to do with mobile browsing. Trying to view in desktop version.

**pinwizj**#74

Turns out most of the TD’s hosting IFPA sanctioned events are also at Pinburgh, so it’s typically always a pretty light week for us . . . and by “us” I now mean “Adam Becker”

**ryanwanger**#75

I ended up submitting for 14 TGP on the logic that in 8 rounds, the minimum group size was 3 (although sometimes there was a four player group), and in 2 rounds the minimum group size was 2 (one of those also had a three player group).

8x1.5 + 2x1 = 14

**jdelz**#76

I always submit these figuring TGP by the largest group per round. Seems like you’re cheating yourself by going with the smallest group instead. For instance, a 23 player tournament would have five groups of 4 and only one group of 3 for the first few rounds, so I think it makes more sense to round up.

**ryanwanger**#77

Is this what I should be doing? I guess I was going by the “shortest path” logic that is used in other TGP calculations (like a heads up double elim bracket).

**ChubbyGoomba**#78

Yeah I’ve been assuming that too. I wonder if that would’ve changed the point total for some of my events…

**BonusLord**#79

Excited to hear that the Keefer strike format is available on MatchPlay! We run a strikes tourney every two weeks but found progressive to be a little lacking due to the unbalanced amounts of strikes depending on the number of players in the group (it’s a real drag when you get down to the final 2 or 3 players and there’s a huge strike gap). We’ll definitely be trying it out next week!

I’ve also been thinking about to make a strikes format more balanced lately and these are the numbers I came up with to provide a ‘balanced’ strike distribution while still rewarding the player for every opponent they outscore:

- Total Strikes: 18 (You could go +/- 5 on this number depending on how forgiving/brutal you want to be~)
- 4 Player Group:
- 1st - 0 Strikes
- 2nd - 2 Strikes
- 3rd - 4 Strikes
- 4th - 6 Strikes

- 3 Player Group:
- 1st - 0 Strikes
- 2nd - 3 Strikes
- 3rd - 6 Strikes

- 2 Player Group:
- 1st - 0 Strikes
- 2nd - 6 Strikes

Like Keefer’s format, this has the nice properties that a player can never be more than 3 losses away from being knocked out and eliminates the unbalanced scoring between 3 and 4 player groups. Since such a high number of strikes sounds silly, I prefer to call it a “Stamina Battle” and refer to the strikes as “Damage” instead (counting down from 18 like HP in an RPG rather than up from 0~).

**chuckwurt**#80

All you need to do to get the 2x value is attempt to make 4 player groups. The ratio of 3 to 4 player groups doesn’t matter in my understanding.

**pinwizj**#81

This is only true when using the approved formats on the TGP Guide. We build that 2X value into the expected value calculations.

Any event that isn’t part of the approved formats list needs to use ACTUAL results. That’s round to round actual details to grade it out appropriately. If a majority of the groups are 4 player (greater than 50%) then you get the 2X bonus for that round. Same with 3 player and the 1.5X bonus.