The ball goes below the flippers any time it hits a center post, too, and that’s definitely still in play.
My thoughts on this situation are that it is awesome.
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Yes, Gene described it to me right after he did it. Sweet! And definitely acceptable.
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Please tell me that was a result of my previous thread. Lol. Now that’s how you effect game strategy!
FYI . . . here’s the verbiage that will be officially added to the IFPAPA ruleset:
“To keep within the spirit of the mechanical nature of pinball, players will be permitted to nudge machines in special cases that strategically benefit the player. These situations are limited specifically to machines such as Avatar, Bram Stoker’s Dracula, and others where a single nudge, when set up properly, has the ability to move a pinball within the game in a specific way that will benefit the player by starting a ball saver, mode, or significant feature of the game. Shaking a machine repeatedly in order to derive some benefit from a loose switch, stuck ball, or improperly set up machine, when a
pinball is not involved directly in the action, is not permitted. Two positive examples of shaking would be nudging Avatar so a locked ball moves and registers a switch, causing a ball save, or in nudging Bram Stoker’s Dracula during the Mist multiball sequence in order to begin that particular multiball. In both cases, a moving pinball is involved in triggering the act, and the player is still at the mercy of a properly set tilt mechanism. A negative example where a tournament director should intervene would be when a player repeatedly shakes Champion Pub lightly so the boxer mechanism wobbles and registers hits without the pinball striking it or the tilt mechanism being activated. In this case, a pinball is not involved directly in the action, and due to the repetitive nature of the exploit, the intent of the player taking advantage of an improperly set up game is far easier to discern.”
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I consider myself an ethical competitor, before pinball I was competitor magic the gathering which was a game with rampant cheating and high stakes. I don’t even attempt death saves in fun games at bars. In Buffalo we discussed this move as a strategy and I went on to let some friends know of the chance to continue a ball like this due to the liberal tilt. I never once even contemplated or imagined it could compared to a death save. If the ball doesn’t go from out of play to in play due to your move, but instead you effect a switch in play regardless of where the ball is, I thought was free game. Do the rules at any point define the location of a captive ball? I didn’t imagine it being in play was ever a question really. If I did this in finals (I didn’t pick avatar because it was fairly evil) and I has been given a 0 I would have been pissed.
This was originally a message to Josh but I should have just posted here I feel
"I am 100% agreeing with your every word on this avatar issue. I asked bowen to explain it because I literally can’t understand his perspective. He told me that captive ball isn’t in play… What?! As a tournament director I never want to be responsible to determine if a player nudged before it after the Outlane switch solely based on majority word when we know people tend to favor their advantage not to mention head to head which is a nightmare - speculation would become what determines the winner especially if it’s a death save and a loss maybe change the whole tourney outcome. Plus the negative feedback of some guy who may have been trying to save the ball not start link or what have you. Our job is hard enough. I literally see no grounds for it being illegal, in fact a bunch of us at buffalo acknowledged it as a smart strategy on ball 3 especially. It never even crossed my mind as cheating it seemed to follow simple logic, risk a tilt to stay alive just like any other strong nudge. Cayles point is valid too. No Outlane nudging for avatar or bsd but fine for any game with a post or say wof and woz? Seems like an unenforceable concept even if rules were changed…"
Maybe this should be a different discussion.
WWE at Buffalo had a huge bounce back up the center every time you drained down the right outlane. Nice to get this on camera:
Is this in the same category of a lazarus? On the 3rd video. If I had slid the machine after it bounced up between the flippers would that be illegal?
well that little bit seems like trouble. That’s setting thigns up for pain where the player thinks one thing, and the TD, who was responsible for the setup, can decide something after the fact that it was ‘improperly setup’.
That kind of disclaimer should fall to the TD responsibility to call out specific boundaries/limits (Tilt end game… no magnets… etc) vs having a catch all that can after the fact redefine the rules of play.
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Captive balls aren’t “in play” like your ball in play. If you drain on Avatar and leave a ball in the captive ball lock, it stays there for the next player. That is effectively a locked ball, not “in play”.
My opinion, which is a minority and I acknowledge it, is that after the ball has passed all scoring features and all opportunities to return to play – i.e., there is absolutely nothing between the ball and the trough – nudging for advantage should not be allowed. I recognize this would be a difficult rule to enforce, so it makes sense not to attempt to add the rule. In this case, it was visibly clear that the player had lost their ball well past the outlane before nudging.
If the same nudge had happened while the original ball was still playable, or while in the inlane/outlane area, terrific! It’s a risky and clever play. My opinion is that after the original ball is no longer playable, it should not be allowed. It’s clear most people don’t agree with me on this, and that’s fine!
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Paragraph 10 baby . . . there’s always a way around every rule 
I agree with Bowen on this, but if I was TD and had some of these games in the tournament I would just make sure that you couldn’t perform these moves. Assuming they were games I could influence setup of course.
Champion pub rules also apply to TWD?
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Certainly seems that way with that verbiage 
Since nobody is ever gonna play CP in a tourney anyways I will regress; how you going to judge legit outlane bumps to well walker nudge bombs? Your verbiage says “repeated” but I can achieve walker hits with once forward bump (and a warning of course) what would be the ruling since I am not “repeatedly” nudging? 
Depends if you hired Lefkoff as your attorney or not 
Lefkoff taught me the lift the front end of ACDC bell hit trick for double drain add-a-ball
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Personally I look at “repeatedly” as the exploit, so enjoy your Wellverine.
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I love the Wellverine move and want it to remain legal, but the verbiage mentions moving a pinball within the game, which the wellverine move clearly is not. I may need to hire Lefkoff on this one.
I promise, last time I am going to make this argument. The rules already state that a switch that triggers without the ball making contact is a malfunction. Although the move was not illegal, I still argue beneficial malfunction is the correct ruling in wellverine case. How TD wants to resolve it is up to them. Since there is no assymetric advantage, play-on is a valid ruling, or hey that malfunction saved a ball that would otherwise have been lost, you only get 1 per game is also fine.
I would also accept “Known Issue” as the ruling, in which case a sign should be put on the machine.
Malfunction. Malfunction. Malfunction. Malfunction. Malfunction. Malfunction. Now I will shut up.
So wicked shimmies ate now illegal if they’ve drained too far down?