Modern 2017 super league format?

Reading all of these comments and what rules can be implemented to nobble Modern makes me laugh.
Those who don’t compete in the Modern SL think it’s unfair that others get their rankings inflated by competing. Surely the simplest solution for them is to set-up their own SL using the exact same format and reap the same benefits? The reason that won’t happen is that they don’t have a location, nor the footfall, nor the desire to do it themselves. So they bitch about other people doing it.
It is a very similar feeling to what many people outside of the US feel, that tournaments favour those in the US. The UK Pinball League, which has been running for over 10 years - and has done more to bring pinball to the attention of UK people than any other competition, is now meaningless for WPPR points, due to not having head to head play every meeting. IFPA have decided that this isn’t a meaningful competition anymore- WTF!

Only last year, I was sneered at and mocked, when I suggested that if I lived in NY, rather than the UK, I would be in the top 20 within a couple of years. Now it appears that other people in the US have seen how it is affecting their rankings and have kicked up such a fuss that the system has to be changed to make it fairer for them.

The reason Modern will continue to have such a large say in the ranking is due to simple facts:

  • They have a TD who is passionate about pinball and wants to have as many people playing pinball in his business. One of the ways of doing this is by hosting competitions where people are rewarded with good points hauls with the minimum of commitment.
  • They have a TD who understands the desire for people to play in maxed out tournaments, and thus tweaks - entirely within the guidelines - the rules to guarantee this.
  • As the current system effectively adds more points to the tournament the more higher ranked players play, as people move up the rankings they will increase their own ranking, thus add to the tournament, thus making more points available for them to increase their ranking further.
  • Modern has a larger pool of players to pick from who are able to play every week, month, and thus enter more comps, ensuring they pass the 5 tournament rule to make them “meaningful” participants in any tournament.

None of these facts are going to change by implementing a new rule, it’ll simply generate a more convoluted tournament to ensure max pts with the people who come through the door.
Now, further down the line, it may be that it is decided that it is simply not worth the effort to keep trying to put on these tournaments, thus reducing the number of people going and playing pinball - not a great result for the IFPA.
It’s more likely though, that the changes made mean that other TDs who are trying to run tournaments with limited footfall or resources find that their tournaments have been affected that much that it simply isn’t worth holding them any more - again not a great result for the IFPA.
What would it be like if FLR was part of the rule making committee at the IFPA? Would the submission rules be being changed so significantly?

As much as people feel that what Modern is doing is unfair and needs fighting against - Substitute Modern for USA and look at from the point of view of people outside the USA.

I’m in the minority

I don’t think anything needs “fixing” as it were, Josh and I have talked at length about this.

Modern Pinball is in a very unique and specific situation, that is there is literally nothing that we in the IFPA can do short of saying “Modern Pinball Super League no longer gets sanction, end stop”

This is Francesco’s day job, anything we throw at him, he has the flexibility, time and drive to work around it.

That being said I still feel all the changes we are making are positive. Francesco is just drawing attention to the areas of much needed attention in our system.

But Modern is a very unique location, there isn’t a public pinball location on the planet that sees the foot traffic he does.

So how is what he is doing anything different that what MagFest, PATZ, Expo, CAX, etc, etc do but obviously just in greater frequency. Could he place more emphasis on the competitive aspect of his tournaments and do more to get more participation rather then the bare minimum, 100%!

But I see no difference in the tournaments he runs from a format perspective compared to the thousands of others I approve. From a participation perspective there is definitely a discrepancy (which we are trying to address).

At the end of the day it’s very hard to look objectively at what Modern Pinball is doing and say anything is wrong with it. This issue only comes from the frequency in how often it is run and the strength of the results as a result of the number of people who participate.

EDIT

Just as a final note, I approve 100’s of monthly tournaments just like Super League, but no one cares about those because they have no where near the impact that super league does. So why should it be ok for those to run month after month, but not super league?

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I wouldn’t say sneered at and mocked, but you’re certainly giving yourself a ton of credit here.

Currently there’s ONE Super League player ranked in the top 20 (Bowden at #6).

Rank 20th in the world is currently 623.94 points, which means you need to average 31.20 WPPR’s per resume result.

Assuming you ran through a resume that was 20 Super Leagues, that’s 12 results at 31.20, and 8 results 41.60 (with the 25% decay for being over a year old).

Looks like that means you would have to WIN 8 Super Leagues, and finish in at least the top 3 in the other 12 months (or at least average out that kind of performance) to see yourself in the top 20.

I can however appreciate your confidence :slight_smile:

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While there is plenty of incentive for amateurs to avoid Superleague and the high-ranking that goes with it, there’s virtually no disincentive for already-higher ranked players to pad their cards with the boffo payouts of juicy WPPRs that come with Superleague. I’ve got a handful of crappy entries I’d love to trade in for some of those 30s and 40s that the Superleaguers enjoy.

The only thing stopping me is my preference to keep more weeknights free, and my hesitation to embrace pure evil in its basest of forms! (but maybe I can get over that)

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There is only one positive thing I can think of that comes from having a high rank, and that is the privilege of paying $200 and travel expenses to play in the IFPA championships. Everything else a player earns (or a player gets restricted). Now, if a player doesn’t understand what will happen if they get too high in the rankings (restrictions to higher divisions) and thereby miss out on an opportunity to compete in a finals at a major, indeed I feel for them.

I wonder if there isn’t a way to let people know how WPPR points/ranking will impact them down the road so they can make informed decisions?

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I’ll add to this list:

  • Seeding at US Nationals
  • Initial seeding at Pinburgh
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If people are legit playing the league, then I have no problem.

The initial rumors were always “oh he’s just signing up anyone in the place to pad numbers.” If that’s not happening anymore, then great.

But, yeah, don’t bitch about your restriction, either.

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Initial seeding at Pinburgh? I wouldn’t even factor that in. As far as US Nationals goes, maybe there is something to it, because of the byes and the advantage of being the higher seed within your match, but ultimately skill should win out across so many rounds and games (and as far as I can tell based on past winners, it has).

And that’s the only thing you can comment on from the whole of that post.
To be honest I did expect that from you. :astonished:

I didn’t bother with the rest because it’s all been said before. The UK isn’t meant to be comparable to the USA as a whole, just based on population, access to events, etc. EUROPE vs. USA a much better and fairer comparison, but I’ll save the copying and pasting of my previously mentioned thoughts on all this.

As you were :slight_smile:

edit: Couldn’t help myself on the re-read for anyone else has a few days to kill :wink:

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unpopular opinion time

It should totally be OK for any and all monthly tournaments to be counted, or even more frequently (there’s a local weekly 2-strike knockout that exists near me). I believe the system should reward variety more than frequency. If you compare a top-50 player that has basically all their points from Modern’s super league vs. a top-50 player with consistently good results at a variety of locations and formats, who would you say is the more well-rounded player?

I’d like to see something where everything counts, but perhaps a limit on the number of instances that can be used for a ranking. So just throwing this out, maybe “quarterly” is the limit, so 4 times a year. That would mean a given player’s top-20 events for ranking purposes would only include their 4 best super league results over a year span, the rest still recorded but not used. You could do something similar for State rankings to keep small-time weekly tournaments from running over other area events.

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Super League has been shut down, and replaced by:

12 ANNUAL events, with 12 different tournament directors. Each tournament will have a unique format to give players a taste of a variety of events the competitive circuit has to offer. Qualifying will still be held throughout the whole month, regardless of the unique format used, and it’ll definitely grade out to 100% TGP, so come one, come all! :slight_smile:

In all seriousness, adding these sort of conditions to the rankings build script would not be trivial.

The easiest thing if we’re really talking about just Modern Pinball is to simply institute IFPA Death Panels. Rather than deeming whether you are worthy of medical care, our Board of Directors would look over your resume, and determine whether you should be eligible for SCS/IFPA WC qualifications based on that resume. That’s far easier then having Shepherd plow through code trying to limit how many points can come from any particular tournament name, tournament location, specific tournament director, etc.

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Tried that one on Josh over a year ago, no dice. The opinion is popular with me; besides, there used to be a “multiples get divided up” WPPR rule where a league run twice a year got only half points each season, quarterlies got 1/4, etc. It worked fine then and didn’t stop people from running regular leagues.

If by “worked fine” you mean having to deal with people trying to work around the rule by changing the name of their league to something else, or switching up who organized the league . . . I guess that “worked fine”.

Modern Pinball aside, and I’ll ask @unsmith because he’s an FSPA guy, does it sounds more fair for those FSPA leagues to have to share points allocated for the year, versus each season being graded individually based on it’s own merit?

Further to that point, my old college league in Champaign is organized across 5 or 6 different locations during the same season, with 2 seasons run per year. What triggers the league being counted as the “same” or not?

Option A) Run two 6-month seasons across all locations, under the “Illini Pinball League”, splitting the annual points available divided by 2.

Option B) Change the league to individual sub-leagues “Illini Pinball League - Quality Inn”, “Illini Pinball League - Illini Union”, along with creating 4 other sub-leagues, each location running their own independent league (FSPA style).

Option A allows the league to split “25 points / 2”, where as Option B allows the league to create 6 different “25 point” leagues under the old system. That’s 25 WPPR’s versus 150 WPPR’s. Sign me up for some WPPR 3.0! :slight_smile:

My own inclination is to go around it completely. Have a Separate “Pinball Tour” ranking for the top 50 events each year, half US, half not, that ranks just the “pros” who go out and compete against quality players at quality events designed to be like those on the golf and tennis tours. A combined PAPA Circuit + ECS Series is a bit like what I have in mind, but I would include other events that are of comparable scope and challenge, e.g. for 2016, add in Expo, PAPA Classics, NW Show, NW Championship, Louisville [got skipped this time]; for Europe, I’m sure the National directors there can suggest what to use, based partially on player count and partially on TVA.

When WPPRS were “opened up” to more events is when people started “gaming the system.” Golf doesn’t give a rats ass if you win your local club every week and are a scratch golfer - - you have no world ranking at all until you come out to play with the big boys away from home. If a few of the pros happen to also play regularly at your club matches, the club rounds still count for zilch.

Until you can’t game the system, people will complain about those who do.

“But what about the travel unfairness …?” Yeah, well, Adam Scott and Jason Day have to do a heck of a lot more traveling than the guys in Florida to keep their rankings - - that’s just the way it is, you have to go where the events with the top competition are. And notice that living in New York or London [or Myrtle Beach] counts for zilch - it’s not the population of people playing casually in your area that counts, it’s pro-level events held that does.

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I think you just kinda described the PAPA Circuit.

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I wrote a big long response, but deleted it. I cannot tell if you are being serious, so can you please clarify?

I’ll humor you Bob … We had 3540 IFPA endorsed tournaments last year.

Pick the ones that belong on the pro circuit, and then let me know what the IFPA does with the others.

You mention US and Europe, but what about a country like Australia that has the third biggest player count, or Japan/Brazil?

How is Wayne in the UK supposed to compete now under this “pro only” system? :slight_smile:

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No, it does not, because FSPA leagues are real leagues that meet 10 times over the course of many months plus playoffs, and aren’t simply monthly tournaments calling themselves “leagues.”

There seems to be a general feeling that nothing can be done because people will continue to find ways to game the system after every change. That’s disheartening, but I know I’m not alone in wishing for improvement.

I know this was tried (sort of) with PARS but what favoring rating over raw points? I’m thinking of something that sheds effectiveness as you play the same people over and over again. The idea would be that it’s progressively less valuable to beat up on the same people forever.

One problem with this is the tendency for the world’s best to meet in finals of majors a lot, I wouldn’t want them penalized. Kinda just brainstorming here. I believe in the ranking system so I have an interest in seeing it be as accurate as possible when comparing players.

Forget that! The argument doesn’t deserve to be humored.

It’s not an apples to apples comparison, because you are missing a major component when comparing pinball to say tennis or golf…money!

No one, not even @sk8ball makes a living playing pinball, tennis/golf can be exclusive in their events because the value in showing up anywhere in the world is offset by the prize pool potential, even if you come in last place you are still making decent enough money to cover your expenses.

That isn’t the case in pinball.

Pinball is still growing, I don’t know that it will ever become mainstream enough to warrant the prizes that pro sports or even pro gaming Guess we’ll see how circuit at $5 a person helps to grow prize pools for other events.

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