IFPA 2018 changes?

I yell at whatever IFPA representative I’m standing in front of :slight_smile:


Was going to read this thread and rant (TAXATION IS THEFT!) Saw how many posts there are…f it, I’ll pay a dollar.



Personally, I’d certainly be in favor of allowing players to opt out of the Circuit fee at Circuit events if they didn’t wish to participate in the Circuit. I don’t believe doing this would cause the whole thing to blow up; the final event pot would just be a bit smaller.

Similarly, I’d personally feel much better about the proposed WPPR fee if part of the rules for event directors is that they must allow players to opt-out of WPPR if they request. If most players really don’t care about the $1, then this won’t hurt anything.

BTW, for my part, this isn’t some anti-WPPR or anti-Circuit aggression, it’s just my standard opinion on how event funds should be used. I’ve had this text on league.papa.org since it launched:

FREE! (as in beer) We think your league’s cash should be used for awesome awards and events for your players, not for administrative tools. We will never charge for any features.

Certainly the pot just being a bit smaller is the great unknown right? If you explicitly asked the 800 players at Pinburgh if they wanted to pay an extra $5 to be included in the Circuit, how much of that $4000 to the prize pool would you lose? Ultimately Doug/Mark/Elizabeth would have to chime in on whether this opt out was ever on the table for Circuit, and the reasons why they chose to not go that path.

I can speak to the IFPA/WPPR side of things, and the best data point I have in terms of ‘interest’ is the number of players that have registered accounts versus the number of players that haven’t bothered to register their account (at no charge currently). The opt IN rate is 8% (roughly 4000 out of 50,000 profiles we have in the database). If I really want the $4000 from Pinburgh to feed the pot for the top 9%, do I want to risk only pulling in $320 for the Circuit Final pot? That’s a tad higher than “just be a bit smaller” IMO.

As for forcing event directors that they must allow players to opt-out goes against our nature of trying to be as FLEXIBLE as we can for everyone. These TD’s are putting in a ton of time and effort, and for those TD’s that don’t want to bother keeping two sets of standings, or keeping track of who paid in and who didn’t, I don’t want their only other option to be that they don’t run the event.

Personally I’m with you though as a TD myself. I don’t want to force any players to be included that don’t want to be, so I have no problem having an opt-out option for any events I personally run.

I didn’t take it that way at all, and my thoughts on the issue were more about linking what seems to be from ‘some people’ anti-WPPR aggression mixed with pro-Circuit acceptance. I personally can’t see any other path than being for or against BOTH of these campaigns based on how they are being managed. Anything less than that is simply hypocritcal IMO.


The difference between the circuit and the IFPA proposal comes down to two things for me:

  1. The location of the SCS is not determined before fees are paid. If, for example, I lived in San Francisco, and payed my entry fees, and watched myself get into the top 16, and then suddenly it was announced that the state championship was in San Diego, I’d be upset. There’s no process to say where an SCS should be held, it’s up to you, basically, to bless a location and TD a few months out. The circuit finals are at a set location and date when the circuit is announced.

  2. The financial risk to the TDs that do voulenteer to run the SCS, and accept a large check from the IFPA for prize money may be making a big mistake tax-wise and legally. The responses to TDs in Wisconsin with concerns of accepting and distributing money were hand-waved away with “you’re doing it already”. With the PAPA circuit, they handle all the distribution of prize money.

If you’re going to go this route, maybe do some legwork and find out what the laws concerning accepting / distributing money for pinball tournaments are in each state.


I think you’ll fine some more similarities here with the Circuit than you may have guessed.

When and Where is the Circuit Final being held for the 2017-18 season? Right now we’re 6 events in, with people spending a ton of money on travel to attend these events without any idea where and when that Circuit Final is going to be held. If you know something I don’t, please have PAPA update their website and fill everyone in.

As for SCS locations, most states by now have a rotation in place (the bigger states especially) that give players a decent idea at where the State Championship will be held. Some of the State Reps base the ultimate location on where the finalists are coming from. For example if the 16 finalists for Ohio are all from Cleveland, holding the finals in Cincinnati doesn’t make much sense.

Any players that are concerned before they start ‘investing’ their time and money trying to qualify are welcome to contact me. I can put those players in touch with the proper State Rep to try and dial in those details sooner versus later.

Any TD that isn’t comfortable accepting a large check from the IFPA for prize money doesn’t have to. We are more than willing to send out the checks from our corporate banking account directly to the winners of that given state. Likewise, any concerns of accepting and distributing money will be addressed between that TD and the IFPA. We understand that this can be an issue and we will collect those funds via a true “administrative fee”. We’ll put this towards our operating expenses (which was a loss in 2016). Our hope would be to find sponsorship to fund the SCS for that State at the level the state WOULD have earned through our normal process, but this would NOT be guaranteed. We would make this crystal clear on which states are at risk.

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I was thinking about this, considering that I would be planning of getting the IFPA fee from location or % off top4 prizes, hence no direct “cost” to players (would only be a philosophical issue…) I may make the event without optout… I understand the reasoning but the added logistics and potential devaluation of result post opt-out for other players would add to confusion in my opinion.
If there is really a “philosophical issue” (still talking about pinball ranking system here…) then skipping my few “IFPA sponsored” events would make more sense…


In Ohio, the process used to be “those who whine the loudest get the SCS” :wink:

It has since moved to the center of the state. I still favor KY over Ohio, but not enough to not pay the $1/tournament.

It makes sense if requests and arrangements have already been made and preparations begun in Cincinnati, but that would imply a process, of which there was none except that quoted above.

Seriously… y’all really screwed the pooch that year and alienated an entire city from the SCS. Annoyance has long worn off, but apathy remains strong :slight_smile:

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You thinking of hosting this year? :wink:

No :wink:

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You do know that the Replay Foundation that runs the Circuit is also a charity right? So, technically every Circuit event is partially a charity event!


You guys are a charity??? … never heard that before literally just now.

So technically you’re saying anyone that took the money at Circuit Final is actually stealing from a charity since that prize pool was fully funded by Replay Foundation last year? I’m not proud today to have been one of those 40 finalists and apologize for stealing from your good cause.


wait I am confused now, are you saying not all 100% of the fee collected from circuit events are going into Circuit finals prize pool and packages PAPA send to the events?

Is there actually a breakdown on where the fees go? Just curious :slight_smile:

Read the official notice here on ReplayFX Foundation being a Charity.


Oh Todd…


Wait… you’re not ok with stealing money from our charity, yet you’ll steal $1 from all of these other charities.



300 posts is the magic limit where this thread jumped the shark. :slight_smile:


Had to look it up, didn’t know about the charity part myself since you never see any posts suggesting such donations made… Nothing but Air Jordan’s here.

100% of all Circuit Fees go to support the Circuit events and the Circuit final.