Why can’t we just have multiple different formats and people can play in the ones they enjoy? Saying things like “match play is better than pump n dump” is purely a matter of personal preference. Now, there may be improvement in how pump n dumps are run, but simply eliminating a style of tournament all together is not a solution to anything…
Sounds good, but creates new concerns, and may not actually shorten queues. As the number of games increases there is more of a possibility that qualifying becomes harder.
If there are exactly N games (say best 5 of 5) and everyone plays the same N games, then to be in the top 16 for example, a player typically needs to be in the top 16 on average on each game.
If there are 2N games and count best N (say best 5 of 10), then there is the possibility there can be two people with perfect 500 scores etc. Now to qualify, the numbers will typically work out to top 8 scores on each game with a 1st or 2nd on something becoming almost a necessity.
Now suppose there are 100 games but only 5 count. There could be 20 unique players with 500 as a perfect score. Granted it is possible that there is never a queue more than one deep, but qualifying top 16 would be pretty hard.
The point is : more games doesn’t automatically solve the problem
I’m all for different types of formats, but everyone knows that the quickest way to circuit status is pump and dump. That not a good thing imo.
As long as the circuit stays where it’s at, with a good mix of formats, I think that’s fine. But if one format dominates the circuit because of the current rules, that’s bad.
If the format remains the same and the cost remains the same, why not just increase the qualifying period and add a classics division as well to provide more options for the players?
Not sure if you were asking this to me. If so, based off the rest of this thread it may be out of scope for this conversation so maybe better for a different topic or PM. In short though, see image below. You spend 1 day qualifying by playing all the games. This gets your seeding. You then play the bracket out. You could even take it a step further and the first game determines A and B brackets and then the double elimination starts. Really, just trying to think of other ways to do it to where people are doing more playing and less sitting. This is kind of a merger of limited entry and match play.
I tried to make a post on tiltforums bringing up the topic of “why does number of players matter so much for WPPRs” and it got zero traction… but I definitely understand the frustration that pump and dumps create an inflated player count. Pinburgh does the same thing though so eh!!?
You’re absolutely right. That’s solely because of the format and prestige, imo.
If there is as a limited entry pump n dump that generated the same buzz, I’d be all aboard. But there isn’t.
You don’t have that problem if you don’t give away free entries with show admission, charge at least $2.50 per entry and have novice/ B division(s).
I’ve coached more than one player through novice divisions in the past and have very much enjoyed doing it. You will always get a few who won’t take it seriously or will leave early, but if you don’t give any entries away, that number goes way down.
Match play also gets players that are playing more socially than competitively. Some get more competitive, some don’t ever and are fine with it. I like that mix. Nothing personal, but I don’t want to only compete against players who read Tilt forums, no matter what the format.
I’ll be onboard with anything that generates the hype that pinburgh does. Everyone I’ve talked to speaks to it’s format being the draw, nothing else.
I’ve never talked to someone that was on their way to a pump and dump due to the prestige of the event. They were attending only because of the circuit status or the proximity.
Talk to me in January when I am on my way to INDISC. I go there because it is my favourite event. I love the format. I love the machine setup. I would go even if it wasn’t worth WPPRs. Of course next year it is The Open, so you may assume I am going because it is a major and a circuit event.
Google “induced demand”. I guarantee if there were more games and shorter lines I would have put in more tickets to clog the lines and improve my standings. I think I started 7 total tickets. That was a relative bargain compared to NYCPC or papa 20 for what I spent In qualifying.
Games are only part of the equation. 12 hrs is just a short qualifying period. I mean that’s just part of the challenge of the tourney. Managing time, knowing when to shred the ticket, strategically putting in a ticket to counteract an opponent. I don’t think more games is the answer.
We’re doing neverdrains for Main and Fair Strike for Classics at OBX this year. Come join us and you get both formats at same event and them tasty circuit points from Main.
@djreddog The round robin format I’ve played in over in Europe that is quite fun, and tries to make use of limited # pins over a player pool that might too big to play all at once on those # of pins…
- number of player is capped. Players pre-register. For example, 64 players.
- Players are divided into some # of groups, let’s say 8 groups of 8 players. Groups are set up in a way where each group has a similar distribution of IFPA ranks in it. You have 8 games going at any one time, and just need a couple more pins than 8. As soon as someone is done with a match, they can immediately start a game with another player from their group that they haven’t faced yet … no need to have 7 separate “rounds” of H2H games within each group.
- Each group is assigned a starting time slot to play one H2H game against every other player in their group. The top X from each group moves onto finals based on # of wins. Let’s say the top 2 – so 16 in total.
- hold whatever finals format you prefer.
That’s the general gist of it.
We can talk about formats, player caps, raising prices, offering free entries to everyone who attends a show, more divisions, more games, longer qualifying period etc. What we need to define is what constitutes “successful” and I think its situational based.
For example, I run an event a few years in a row focusing on recruiting the Top 64 players in the world and I become a SPC event. Did I accomplish success?
I think it comes down to the organizers/TD’s and what they’re trying to accomplish. If their goals are met to them, that would be successful. I also think there are two categories to “large” events, ones that are tied to shows and ones that aren’t and each have their pro’s / con’s.
The other problem is when the next person up is awol.
This of course leads to a cascading line of no-shows that can quickly skip 5 people since everybody is at the show waiting for their notification.
I’ve snuck in front of 5 people or so on a few occasions noticing this.
Queuing is good for the player but bad for the scorekeeper. The “bad” will be dependent upon the size of the event / if its connected to the show / if more people smoke and are outside etc.
I unfortunately missed the last OBX due to illness but I heard a lot of complaints from players about having to wait in line. Yea, Im sure more games and more scorekeepers would of helped but Id assume not once did a scorekeeper need to yell for a player that was up next to play. We’ll be utilizing queuing / DTM this year because its better for the players who are our customers…
I’ve worked and helped run the last three TPF tournaments. Here are my suggestions about queuing:
- Have a PA available and make sure your scorekeepers know where the mic is located
- If the next player up does not respond to the PA announcement within 30 seconds, move on. Neverdrains does not (automatically) remove you until you’ve been skipped 3 times.
- Train your scorekeepers so they don’t remove people in the queue.
- Make sure your players know they are still first in the queue if they get skipped.
Thanks for the feedback!
Since we’ll be using TDM for the first time at OBX and I know they have a PA system this is something we can look at leveraging. You’re advice regarding the skipping rather then removing is something else we’ll train our scorekeepers on. Its imperative all the scorekeepers handle a “player up next that is MIA” the same way!
I think most of this “waiting in line” stuff is a perception of the same exact waiting around being somehow different. I’m either waiting in line for a turn at Pumpburgh where I’ll hopefully get at least 4 games in over 2 hours, or waiting around for my turn at Pinburgh where I’ll get exactly 4 games over 2 hours. Seems like a wash to me.
I don’t think you’ll have any problems at OBX.
It’s a relatively small place and there’s nowhere else to go besides the parking lot. Queuing will work pretty well there.