I think some sort of amateur division would be great. But again, requires a lot more work to track more standings.
If it doesnāt effect SCS or things like Power 100 then Iām more interested. Not sure how that would play out or look.
At first when i saw Joshās response my ears perked up about the āProā vs āAmateurā events but that almost feels like it would alienate even more people.
To explain my thoughts. Current state most large events restrict players that are top 500 (some 250) as āAā players. Thatās almost like calling them āProāsā to me. If you make the āProā cutoff 500 then those people that are 300-500 for instant still wont feel like they stand a real chance of winning anything but now they canāt even play in the other events (āAmateurā events), as it wouldnāt make sense to accept proās in amateur events. Looking more realistically to ensure you have worth while participation in Pro events you would most likely have to bump that rating down to 1000 or further which in such would put even more people in the, āI donāt feel like I can be competitiveā bucket.
Iām diffidently interested in this but real curious how it could be set up to work to not alienate people.
Or because theyāre really good at breaking the rules and illegally filming their opponents. 
7 Likes
Just thought of something else. The restricting players from events removes the possibility or some Cinderella stories which to me are the great wins in pinball for a lot of us. I think I was more proud of myself for actually beating @snailman in TPF a couple years ago than actually making it to the next round even if it was because he had a real rough couple rounds of feeds. Shoot, when I get home from an event the first thing my daughter ask me is, āWas Colin, Robert and Steve there?ā And if I answer yes her next question is, āDid you beat them?ā 90% of the time itās, āNopeā but the times I did Iām the proudest as sheās proud of me. She could care less if I was 15th place or 1st, just how did I do against people she knows and that are really good.
Example - Last night myself and another top 500 player (Think he may actually be top 100) played in local league. Ranking wise, he and I were both the favorites. I didnāt even qualify for finals (top 4 only) but he did. He took 4th in finals. I have to believe that those that took 1st through 3rd had to feel better about their placements knowing they beat two top 500 players than if they would have finished that high because myself and the other player werenāt allowed to participate in the first place.
I think thatās why I lean so much on the restrictions being the biggest challenge as everyone still has a chance to play against some great players but if they arenāt having a stellar day they still get the fun of competing with people by making B or C finals.
2 Likes
What I would consider my core player base has an average IFPA Rank of 4106. That base includes the 59th ranked player in the IFPA all the way down to the 17,828th. 63% of my base is ranked under 2000. The average rank of the winners of the events in DC is 834. Top 1000 ranked players have won 74% of the events, and the same 3 players have won 58% of all the events run in the city. Past those three players, no one has won more than one event and except for once this year, if two of those three players competed in event, one of them won the event. Those three players average finish is 3rd in the tournaments they lost, so even then they were right there. I have a big disparity in skills in my community, and it seems to me that most folks on this boardās answer to that is the olā pull yourself up by your bootstraps āPlay better.ā
And play better is a great cultural shorthand, it really is, but I also look to at the word āplayā in there as the whole engage in activity for enjoyment kind of play. We always say, itās more fun to compete, and I believe itās true. I think competitive pinball and the IFPA are the heart of the pinball resurgence. For me pinball went from being a fun nostalgic thing I would do for a cheap date, to pretty much becoming my whole life, and all it took was one tournament for me to become hooked. The friends Iāve made in this whole endeavored are amongst my favorite people Iāve ever met. I really do enjoy organizing and running events and volunteering so much of my time to this. But Iām not gonna lie, there are days it feels like Iām running a feeder system funneling WPPRs and money to a handful of players and not really building a community.
Anyway, youāre all getting the Flipper & Sickle now. Pinball for the People! 
4 Likes
Thatās really not that unlike where I play (Austin). I canāt think of the last time that one of 4 players attended a Buffalo Monthly and didnāt win. Heck, the same player just won, Teolis World Tour, Texas Pinball League and Houston Arcade Expo all the same weekend! Shoot, at our monthly league the same person won it something like 5 months straight. I donāt think the answer should be that we donāt all those two players or others of their skill to play. Itās not fair to them and itās not there fault that the rest of us provide little competition to them.
That why I think if you are preventing some from playing itās got to be the more casual events that arenāt for WPPRās or SCS standings. Those need to be the more home, for fun, events. If you care about WPPR or SCS then itās just part of it that your going to have to play some good players. Itās a tough pill to swallow. I know that from personal experience 
2 Likes
To me, it seems like you are way underselling a lot of players, here, and in your other posts.
I know and see many skilled players in the 300-500 range who absolutely stand a chance of winning any event. It wonāt happen always, or often, but to paint it as these players are all doomed to certain demise, I dunno.
Maybe a 300-500 player who goes into events thinking theyāre screwed wonāt win many, or any. Theyāve already lost before the first ball gets plunged. But it is totally doable. Change of attitude changes things, IMO, and working to get better!
No, I dont think a brand new player can or will win most events. But they can and do improve, and are able to attain and achieve personal goals. It isnāt always about taking first place every time for many players, so the dominance of a few players isnt keeping me up at night. Plus, those dominant players CAN be beat, just gotta put in the practice workā¦ gonna take a lot of losses, but thatās all part of the fun!
5 Likes
Yes they can be beat but a 350 (me) ranked player beating 8 (Steve B), 10 (Colin M) and 101 (Robert B) in the world in a 4 player group isnāt going to happen much at all. This is a very real world example in Austin. I give myself 10% at best and you could easily find those scenarios in recent events to prove that (finals with skill gaps like this). If they would win more often they are only 350 because they rarely compete so there rating isnāt accurate. Look at the Stern pro circuit events. How many were won with a player at 300+ ranking when more than a couple top 200ās showed up?
Attitude isnāt making a 350 player now a top 100. Just like Dak Prescott isnt going to be a better QB than Tom Brady just because he believes in himself. People have skill caps and no matter how much you practice you can only get so good.
2 Likes
Thatās kind of sad. It tells me people are in it for the points more than having a fun day of pinball.
5 Likes
Whatās sad about it? If Iām going to a tournament I want it to be worth going. There is a time and financial investment in it. If I want to go for a fun day of pinball I invite friends over for drinks and games. Tournaments for sure and even some leagues are about the competition and rankings as much as friendships. Itās fun too but winning and getting 4 points is not near as fun or rewarding as getting 20 points.
3 Likes
Let me clarify: I find it sad. I donāt give a crap how many points a tournament is worth, I care that itās a fun format at a place I like to play and Iām generally going to enjoy myself. I appreciate that some others are trying to climb the ladder and looking to maximize WPPRs, but for me, I donāt play or travel enough for my ranking to really mean anything. I only care about WPPRs insofar as it qualifies me for States.
Thatās the sort of participation I would encourage.
11 Likes
Do you think you would enjoy playing more in Seattle or Pittsburgh though? You would have more events to choose from in Seattle at least, but the top end of Pittsburgh and Seattle are sharp. You would definitely have more A Minus players to commiserate with though.
Possible reasons a player is ranked 350ā¦
ā¦ they were a 500 player last month, and are improving
ā¦ they were a top 100 player, but havenāt done many events recently
ā¦ they donāt, canāt, wonāt, have not etc travelled much for events
ā¦ they havenāt pushed themselves to their limit, and happen to be thereā¦
Etc etc
or
ā¦ they are a player who, in your words, has a āskill cap(s) and no matter how much you practice you can only get so good.ā
All of the above are objective possibilities, and all those players have a shot to win. Well, I say all are possibilities, but Iām not actually sure I agree with your premise, that such rigid skill caps exist in this hobby to the degree you suggest (football and pinball are very different things) ā¦ thatās a topic for another thread though.
I think thereās an important distinction to make here in the years Iāve heard the āWPPRās for Bā argument.
Itās never actually the ācasualsā that care about things like this. Itās always the B-level player that feels they have hit a skill plateau, theyāve already hit their WPPR 20 event threshold, so the launch up the rankings just for participating in stuff no longer serves that purpose.
āCasualsā who havenāt played in 20 events yet (and most players take YEARS to hit that level) have plenty of time to find success in competitive pinball without worry of not actually winning a comp.
I can understand the frustration of that B-level player whoās now running into what feels like a brick wall, but letās not throw the ācasualsā term around like weāre doing that group a favor with any of this discussion.
Thereās plenty of great ways to award players of various skill levels without impacting the ability for the event to be IFPA sanctioned:
- Give prizes out randomly instead of based on skill
- Designate a certain percentage of the prize money to players ranked lower than X
- Find the top 4 finishers of the night ranked lower than X, and play a āNovice Finalā 4-player game for some percentage of the prize money and glory
16 Likes
Yeah, I only care about WPPRs for States as well, because thatās just a fun goal. Itās a little less fun this year since we lost the Black Cat, but I digress.
There is something to about the quest for WPPRs. Itās the main thing that matters for a lot of players. When I first was putting together my monthly, the first thing I was asked is if it was going to max out. It was a big deal to a lot of folks. The player base mostly seem happy trying other formats as long as they know next month the bread and butter 4x is coming back. There are plenty of folks that donāt care, but they are generally not the people I hear from about any issues.
1 Like
Thatās awesome for him and would easily fall within my 10% measure if it happened now. That was 2012. I donāt recall Josh Henderson being a top 200 player at that time. Feels like it was several years later he took off but it has been 7 yearsā¦ Has a 1000+ player won a Stern Pro circuit event this year? I couldnāt find one. I did Keith Johnson whom is doing pretty well in the circuit at IFPA over 1K but he doesnāt even have 20 events under his belt yet.
Josh won the Pittsburgh Pinball Open in 2011 and won PAPA B in 2010. You seem quick to dismiss things that donāt line up the way you see them. The point I am making is, there are ways to encourage lower ranked players to play in open events (entrance fee structuring) without keeping top players out. And who knows, maybe they can win or maybe theyāll have fun playing with top competitors. I know I always have (had fun, I donāt win too often, but it happens).
Whatās sad is you need to speak towards people you disagree with in that way. Saying āI find it sadā is derogatory towards those not in your mindset but is also par for the course these days around here, especially those in the vocal minority.
So is your opinion that people arenāt coming because they have to win to have fun. Remember the whole point of this thread right? People not wanting to play because the same people are winning. Iām offering suggestions on how to keep those people engaged. Itās just frustrating to have people like you pipe in with your derogatory mindset and try and talk down to those with suggestions vs offering suggestions yourself.
Whatās also really frustrating is that some people canāt understand that competitive pinball to some is more than just trying to have fun. Playing just for fun is way different than trying to be competitive for those that do care about SCS and WPPR. All you have to do is look at how the game is played in a tournament vs not to understand that. If you donāt care about SCS or WPPR then run private events and donāt invite people you canāt compete against. Thatās already been discussed above multiple times.
*no clue why this got "hidden I guess Iām not allowed to respond to people in the same fashion that speak to me in? "
1 Like
I clearly said that there was a chance. Thus the whole 10% thing. Come to right now not 8 years ago. Again, I ask. How many Stern Circuit events were won by someone not in the top 200?
Whatever thoughā¦ Iām done trying to help. There is obviously a problem here as I wasnāt even the one that suggested this thread. Now all some of you want to do is to try and jump on the try and talk crap to 85vett bandwagon. Fact is YOU ARE LOSING PLAYERS! Obviously some of you donāt care but I do and am willing to speak out about it. I just wish the others that feel this way would pipe in to but according to their feedback they donāt want to be part of the ānot cool kidsā club. Donāt believe me, change your formats to where more randomness occurs and see how your league does. In Austin we went from over 40 people coming out to less than 20 in a single year. There are some other factors but for the competitive people this WAS THE REASON. Format changes to league. Iām already out of trying next year competitively. Maybe I should just be out of trying to help support and grow pinball too since Iām obviously and idiot.