Not sure of the format(s) you use, but do you think if you switched up things with the format it might entice people more and longer?
Think thatās a good suggestion. Not real sure how that would work but thatās a good topic.
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I know thereāve been posts about handicapping elsewhere on here, might try to track them down and link up.
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I think the tiered entry fee is the only way to make an event IFPA eligible that I have seen, and still level the playing field at least economically. First x IFPA events free or cheap is the same essential concept.
Some other spitball suggestions that either break IFPA rules or at least ignore the spirit of ranked competitionā¦
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Less strikes for rank x or higher.
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Lower rank picks game or order.
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Lower rank wins match play ties.
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Higher rank plunges first ball.
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Lower rank plays extra balls.
Those are the only ones I can think of without compromising the integrity of the balls the superior player actually gets to play. I have seen suggestions about a 2 minute max on balls or various other hindrances placed on players, but if I was the superior player I would have a vast preference towards being able to play as close to normally as possible when I step up to the machine.
I guess what I donāt understand is how that will make the people that feel they canāt win but are too good for B or Novice divisions to still come? So, Iām charged $50 instead of $100 to enter, if I still feel like I stand no chance and I canāt play in anything other than (fill in the restriction) then Iām still at square one.
Some people winning everything is the nature of the beast when you have some of the skilled players we do. Does it frustrate me that I donāt feel I can win the Buffalo Monthlys if Colin M, Steve B, Mark M, Robert B, etc shows up? Yuppers, but I still attend since Iām not āAā restricted in that event so at least I know I can play in B if those 4 take spots 1-4.
I donāt feel like my suggestions are really applicable to larger events that would have a B Division in the first place. I was more thinking along the lines of local events with a strong existing scene and who already have multiple events per week. Iām also not sure many cities outside of Portland and Seattle have a large enough player base and enough true A Division players to where a handicapped tournament might draw more people than just adding a 9th 3 strikes weekly to the calendar. Your situation is somewhat unique in that Austin doesnāt have a huge scene, but has a very large number of excellent players in it.
You got it. Suggestions for a better topic name are welcomed.
That would be awesome! Link to the other topics in a post on this thread and the forum will automatically link 'em up.
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there may be more, but this is a start
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I was discussing something just this weekend at a comp about a format I had seen in the past.
The format is you play each game once, and then the rankings determine who moves on to the next round. The change being that the finals instead of being 3 x 4 player games of 4,2,1,0 - there are only 2 actual played games, followed by a āvirtual gameā based on the ranking in qualification. So the person who qualified in 1st place gets 4pts, 2nd qualifier gets 2pts, etc.
This could be adjusted for a league format, so that after the results of a meeting have been calculated, the results are then converted in to a virtual game for the next league meeting. The handicapped part would be that the player who finished last would then be given first place on the virtual game in the next meeting.
I havenāt tried this format yet, as I no longer run a league, but can see it encouraging newbies to turn up to successive meetings, knowing theyāve got a headstart for the next meeting.
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what about Bountys?? will that still keep it IFPA eligible
I can think of 3 ideas:
1 - Cost - Our monthly events have a $10 entry fee which is split 40/30/20/10% for the Top 4 and I also have a āconsolationā winner who is top finisher with a rank of 1750 or lower. I think Iām going to lower the entry to $5 so folks donāt think theyāre simply donating the money to superior players.
2 - Format - The days of using Group Knockout 3 strikes for a monthly tournament are over. Iām not going to run an event where people are driving ~3 hours, get 3 strikes and are eliminated. Fair Strikes with 8-10 strikes given depending on the amount of players seems to offer good āvalueā.
3 - Skills / Training - See if your āBā players want to be āAā players and offer classes. I see a lot of our āAā players teach and provide feedback to less experienced players. This works well in a league which tends to be less competitive and more social. You can provide homework to the āBā players which include watching youtube videos / learning rules. Flipper skills / nudging may be better taught in person.
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Iām down with creative ways to get more people to join the competition, but I strongly oppose skewing the competition once it starts. Whatever your format, once the tournament starts, weāre all equal and may the best player win.
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4- Finals / Playoffs - The common denominator with players that have gone from B or lower to A is that they watched the finals or playoffs even if they did not qualify(at least here it is). All players should feel invited to participate in the finals regardless of whether or not they are playing. Not only is it the best way to pick up new skills, it is the best opportunity for players to feel as if they are just as important to the scene (which they are) as those who have made it.
There is just something about elimination games that makes them so educational from a competitive perspective, and so entertaining from a viewer perspective. The people who watch them want to play in them, so they get better. So i guess to keep with the theme of the thread i would say lengthy playoffs and inviting / entertaining finals.
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I havenāt really thought this thread through very deeply, or these issues in general, but I have seen the Portland scene evolve over the years and I have to say that #3 of these hints at something that has worked here: the social team league that Derek Miazga (not sure if heās on Tilt Forums or his handle if so) launched here, I believe with some inspiration from a league in New York, IIRC. Thatās regularly brought players of mixed skill levels together, itās introduced another social element to the game, and seems to have also enticed people to play in the IFPA sanctioned tournaments here.
Though I was playing somewhat regularly before I joined a team and I havenāt been able to play on a team for a few seasons because of other commitments, I know thatās both how I started to build skills more quickly and it has introduced me to many other players. Even now when I go to events and talk to people about their seasons itās clear how much theyāre bonding with their teammates and fellow players. It also seems to be the case that āhomeā bars have pride in their teams (a la beer league softball). Maybe at some point various similar leagues could emerge elsewhere and some sort of city-to-city competitions could happen?
Thereās also Leslie Martin, a woman here (and former teammate of mine) who has been running a set of āPadawanā tournaments for players ranked lower than 20 in the state, with cash for the top three and first out, and usually a fun side tournament. She also does a more āfunā event she calls āChaosā with various alternative play styles picked from a hat (split fipper, reverse hands, play with thumbs, tommy-dollar esque blacked out playfields, etc.). Itās a lot of work for her to organize as is TDāing traditionally, but itās fun and keeps scratching the pinball itch. These are open to all players.
This is all to say that there seem to be ideas out there to nurture participation that donāt involve IFPA-sanctioned events yet still allow players a chance to develop their skills, sometimes even competing against or alongside the seemingly āunreachableā players.
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Hey folks, glad there is some discussion on this. I want to clarify a few things here first.
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This is not a thing I find to be a big issue, but I do think there is room for improvement. There are a ton of ways to get people involved and what not, but player retention is more of what Iām talking about here. Folks like to compete, but for some, itās not competing if you rarely have a chance to win.
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I want to stress that this is not a complaint about top ranked players coming to events in anyway. I want it to be where if Bowen ever wanders into one of my events, he feels just as welcome as everyone else there, and I want folks to be excited about the challenge ahead of them that a player of his caliber can provide. It sucks so much to watch folks grumble because a top ranked player showed-up. Itās terrible and I try to speak up when I see folks being jerks about it, but I also get where that comes from.
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Last, my rank in the IFPA is 2212th. Iām gonna wager that of the folks that post here on the regular, that Iām on the bottom end of pinball skills, so that helps frame my point of view on this topic, and probably why my focus is more on the middle and lower tier of skilled players and not so much on the higher end.
Iām going to address a few things here and I hope they move the discussion along, because I do think itās a good one.
I really donāt think format is to much of an issue. I run a nice sized 4x monthly. We have a pretty great and chill league, and we have no issue running a variety of formats and events.
That does help on that the economic front. It can be frustrating to think that you are constantly donating to the same folks repeatedly, so having less in the pot can help mitigate that. That doesnāt really help players feel like they have a chance to win. One thing I have seen, is that keeping entry fees low has helped keep some bigger fish away, because itās not worth their time. They wonāt make enough money from winning, and the event probably wonāt be worth enough in WPPRs to fit in their ranks unless they want to play in DC NACS
That said, some still come because itās fun, and thatās great. I love having them around. They help the new players so much and all of our top end players are good people that I enjoy spending time with itās not their fault they are dominating. I donāt want them to feel punished for being good.
I agree here for the most part, itās why I hate restrictions. If you and I both score 30 points on day one of Pinburgh, I would want to see you on day two. Instead, you will be restricted to a higher division, which to me says we are not on equal once the tournament starts. In fact, thereās a system in place to give you a floor for how low you will finish in the final standings. Like, no matter how badly you played for two days, you never had to worry about finishing, letās just say randomly, in 901st place.
That said, I do think there are quality ways to handicap things and the Seattle Pinball League seems like a great example. It gives folks from all skill levels a taste of finals and advancement. I havenāt tried an FSPA league yet, but I plan on changing that soon. I think that might help me gain some more perspective on all of this.
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I guess what I would really like is to have the ability to run tournaments where players above a certain rank would not be eligible to play in the tournament. The IFPA allows invitationals and other tournaments where players must meet a certain criteria to be eligible for the event. Why canāt that been done in the other direction? The restriction prior to the event could impact the tournamentās rating, so that lower player would still receive WPPRs and receive that positive feedback in seeing their IFPA rank go up. Earning victories or going deep in lower level tournaments, could help keeping folks coming back while also helping to build confidence.
Eventually, players would either advance past those types of tournaments, or they will find a comfort zone, where they know that no matter what other tournaments they play in, they have ones that are for them as well.
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I would think something like this would be possible, if not Iām surprised it doesnāt exist. My sonās jiu-jitsu tournaments are divided up by Age, Weight, Overall Experience (less than 6 months, 6 months to a year, 1-3 years, etc.). It prevents kids from just outright being bulldozed, but everything is still fairly competitive. Obviously I donāt think pinball tournaments need to go that deep in dividing things up but I certainly believe thereās pockets of the scene around the world that would greatly benefit from having tournaments geared toward novice players.
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Paging @Adam to post his annual āWPPRās for B-divisionā rgp2 post from the late 00ās/early 10ās 
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