The tournaments I play (Finland) usually have a tilt that will allow for one big move and give a double danger. I like that and wouldn’t want the tilts to be set with preventing deaths saves in mind.
2 Likes
Not “probably”. More like “absolutely”. A TD must balance the difficulty of the game with how long the game time would be increased in an ‘anything goes’ world.
Seeing elite players turn 3 ball games into 15-20 ball games using death save and bangbacks, there’s no doubt I would make the tilt on the game more sensitive. I would also remove tilt warnings so first instance of tilt bob hitting the ring would be a tilt.
YMMV depending on how long TD’s want the event to run.
5 Likes
I understand that. That’s why I would be against allowing death saves in the first place.
1 Like
I’m all for death saves, just ask anyone that plays here on a regular basis, you can pretty much death save any game here with a well earned double danger if you’re good.
I see no difference between throwing Congo 6 miles across the room to make a SDTM save, or a less violent left then right pop to get the ball back. Both balls were death with out a big player move to save it.
I’d allow bang backs too if the potential for broken wrists wasn’t so high, I just can’t deal with the liability and I have insurance for all kinds of stuff here that pretty much no tournament is going to have.
If IFPA/PAPA dosen’t want to change the rules I’m fine with that. You guys have spent years figuring all this crap out for the betterment of the game so I’m not going to argue even though I disagree.
All of this being said,I plan on having a Death Save Only side event at next years Bat City Open; In this event your score on a machine will not count UNLESS you make a successful death save during your game. The tilts will get tighter as the rounds progress until the best death saver in the world (or at least Texas) is crowned champion…
2 Likes
I definitely agree. The best players in the world are also the best players at performing these manuevers. It would only spread the distance between the elite and the lower tier players.
Imagine someone playing Elwin in a 3 ball game. Now imagine that player getting 3 balls while Elwin gets 15.
You would be forced to have the game on insta tilt settings or a PAPA style three game round could go 6-8 hours.
I’m one of those players, except I know how to death save, so I’d probably get at least 4 balls…
I still just don’t see the difference between the moves, taking Elwin again, he can take a danger moving the game 6 inches to save a middle drain twice (two “extra” balls) or he can take two dangers on one ball that hits the right out lane (one “extra” ball). On a game like Metallica where you are about a million times more likely to drain out the left than the right, how many death saves will he get?
My original comment was about the hypocrisy of allowing death saves and not bangbacks. A player should be able to do WHATEVER they want with their hands IMO.
I’ve never broken my wrist in my 20+ years of executing thousands of bangbacks. Those that know how to perform it well are less likely to hurt themselves compared to a death save on a game being shoved to the game next to it and crushing a player’s finger that’s currently playing that other game.
Got you, not sure why I didn’t pick that up the first time I read it.
Then, I guess my last argument against bang backs (outside of inexperienced players injuring themselves) would be the tilt setting. I re-watched the PAPA video and there appeared to be no warnings on any of the three attempts. I’m not sure you could set the tilt tight enough to issue a danger on a bang back, thus limiting the number of times you could pull this off, with out making the game unplayable in all other aspects.
I have no desire to go back to the days of tilts so tight that blinking at a game tilted it. That wasn’t real fun to watch sometimes. If I’m going to spend 4 hours watching “God Tier” players on Sunday finals, I want to see them show off all their skill against a hard but fair game.
3 Likes
Remember, TDs always have the option to “allow anything” aside from abuse, set the tilts normally, then booger up the trough wall to make either bangbacks or deathsaves too difficult to attempt.
At Pinburgh, this would be unrealistic, but most tourneys only involve a couple dozen games. Obviously test first, but adding some wrinkled painters tape to the sweet spots or similar should mess up the technique.
My biggest personal argument against death saves is that unless you have the ability for the game to make a 360 degree turn all the way around, you will run into games being slid into other games, other people, walls, etc. Since the game is always slid to the right there’s no going back.
That leads to interference issues, delay of game issues, games becoming unlevel, etc.
1 Like
Kind of like this?
Seriously though, I do see what you are saying, and it can be a big problem that would slow down an event.
2 Likes
whoaaa the man pack a punch! Though with rubber feet on and “pinball leg out of the feet you get dequeue” it would be much harder to abuse the machine like that…
I’m with you.
IANAL, but is there any actual liability concern with bangbacks? That sounds like as much of a liability issue as “a player at my tournament punched a wall in frustration and broke his wrist, now he’s suing me for having a wall that hurt him”. Of course anyone can sue for anything, but would someone actually win a case if they hurt themselves while voluntarily punching a 300 lb block of wood?
Insurance company: how’d you get hurt?
Person: I punched a pinball machine.
Insurance company: Have a nic…
Person: They said I could do it…
Insurance company: So is it Joe, or Joseph for the check…
Even the wall punching will likely result in a payment, it’s just cheaper and easier for them to throw some cash at you than pay lawyers and fight it, plus they get to raise my rates for having a claim.
Even if I post a billboard in the room saying “Bang Back At Your Own Risk! We Are Not Liable For Injuries!!!” It’s still my fault for allowing the risky behavior/action.
It’s why there are not a lot of mechanical bull rides in bars, carnivals, or festivals any longer.
1 Like
Actually, the only reason I did it was so that we could have this discussion here and now. Y’all are welcome. 
13 Likes
Well played sir…
1 Like
Or just keep death saves illegal.
1 Like
1 Like
4LYFE
1 Like
Special tournament format that includes restrictions on DS and BB? 