WOZ CB No hold flipper penalty. Video is NSFW.

Had a decent game going on WOZ (my standards are really, really low) and incurred the CB no hold flipper penalty.

Penalty happens at the end of the video if you want to skip forward. If you do watch the video you should note that before incurring the penalty I had hit the CB to start a CB mode but was not awarded a Jackpot. I went on to hit the next CB from the right flipper and then collected the 2x and 3x from the cradled left flipper.

I understand the desire to stop an exploit but when you are penalized for making shots it really seems like a flawed way to handle the situation. Sucked as it was the final shots to qualify all the RESCUE MB letters.

Interested to hear what seasoned players think.

Video is NSFW as I use a couple of choice words.
https://player.twitch.tv/?video=v55760275

Briefly watched the end - so you started no hold without knowing?

I think what the game really needs there is a delay in the start of no-hold-flippers, preceded by a guaranteed warning/callout.

If the game had of stomped the current animation and/or sound and told you it was coming, I imagine you would have felt less ripped off.

…No hold is not fun imo, (afaik, it still just gives you 2x yes?). Though worse is weak flippers, which, just makes the game play like a turd.

He did not start no hold CB mode, because he hit CB 3 times without hitting anything else, the game enabled no hold to avoid allowing people to exploit the geometry indefinitely. If it was a CB mode it would have been fine because it would have a ball save.

I think a warning on the second hit is needed. Like a tilt warning. Maybe there is a witch callout that warns, but that is subtle. In this situation it does suck a lot. He was doing was the game was telling him to do, hit the CB and it activated no hold for the rest of ball. At the same time, it is a rule strong players need to be aware of. If this happens in a tournament, people need to realise it is not a malfunction.

No, no hold flippers was a penalty for hitting the crystal ball 3x in a row. Keith put in the penalty because of being able to cradle two balls on the left and hitting the CB. I was already in a CB mode, lights out, but No hold starting did surprise me as I shouldn’t have incurred the penalty.

Not having any indicator that the game is about to penalize you is the killer. That and I should have already been given a Jackpot from a previous CB shot but that is obviously a separate bug.

The way I hit the CB first with the right and then 2x with the left shows clearly why a penalty is really harsh. Penalizing skilled play seems really counter intuitive in pinball.

Ahh I see.

Keith, that seems like an incredibly punishing solution. Did you consider just not giving the player awards from that shot after N shots until they hit some other shot(s) first?

-cAyle

I was surprised by this choice when Keith made it. I thought awarding 0 points until something else was done made way more sense. Or maybe light the spinner for negative points, that would be funny.

4 Likes

Ugh, this seems awful. I can think of a few other games that have similar geometry, maybe not as much of a sure thing as on WOZ, but definitely repeatable like this.

This feels like a software hack to correct a bad playfield design in that area.

So here’s my collective thinking based on all the input I’ve gotten.

  • I’ve had several players say they have no problem doing that shot all day long, and in fact would do it if it meant advancing or winning a major tournament.
  • You got 2 shots at it already. It doesn’t matter if one was from the right first or not, you made the shot, then made the choice to exploit the shot 2 more times. I let you do it ONE extra time. Any more than that is just being silly and exploitative, hence the penalty.
  • The witch makes a call she NEVER makes from the crystal ball on your second shot: “I’m watching you child.” Sorry you didn’t notice it. Then when you invoke the penalty, “You don’t have the power to control my balls!” Seemed appropriate.
  • It is practically impossible to invoke this code unless you are actively doing something to do it. The following things interrupt the penalty process: any shot (including throne room, search loop, castle door shot, left playfield exit, house loop), any outlane switch (every toto, every TNPLH including the 1-pt switch), the witch (ironically), glinda, any rainbow target, any rescue target, any oz lane. I’m pretty sure generally speaking if you’re not trying to exploit the shot, you can generally hit one of those other things first before you “accidentally” make 3-in-a-row.
  • After the crap I got about the ECMB exploit and the giant middle finger I got from the competitive community when I politely asked to trust me that I would have it fixed soon but instead got a bunch of high-horsers hell-bent on exposing it, everyone can just GTFO with the whining on this one. Absolutely no caring or sympathy from me at this point.

You can call it skill, and maybe it is. But it’s too easy. Is it a hack for bad pf design? No, it’s a very specifically engineered solution to a problem that fixes an issue for a collective pinball community already proved they had no tolerance for exploits to begin with. So, I close another exploit, and you want to get mad at me for it? Sorry, don’t think so.

If you didn’t know it was there before, you know now. So don’t do it.

It’s way too hard and introduces too many other issues to just zero-out scoring, so that’s not an option.

5 Likes

Why the need for the penalty if in Rescue MB though? I understand wanting to prevent it in MTW but what difference does it make in Rescue? How is it different than just hitting the right ramp over and over and over again. which seems in line with CB exploit you want to stop, and is frankly a more reliable of a shot than backhanding the CB.

On a side note, did you notice it did not award a Jackpot when the CB was hit to begin a CB mode?

That is good to know, I remember testing this when the code came out and thinking the final quote was funny, didn’t realise the other was the warning. I will try to remember that.

Understood. Thanks again for so openly sharing your thoughts.

You really don’t see the difference? You can safely hit CB from a trap, which directly feeds it back to the left. You can’t hit the right ramp from a trap on the left. I digress though, you must know this.

there is a big difference between hitting the CB in Rescue MB and MTW. In Rescue there is little difference in accomplishing 3x jackpot by hitting the right ramp off of the left flipper and doing the same from a trap from the left to the CB shot.

The penalty is not dependent of the shot being made from a trap. You could hit the CB from the right, trap post on the left and then post pass back to the right. Do this 3x and you get the penalty, just seems harsh.

The video shows a circumstance in which the penalty shouldn’t have occurred.

I’m a huge WOZ fan and have expressed my appreciate of the rules countless times. That said, I think the CB penalty in Rescue sucks.

I’ll stop my whining and make sure to throw up some slop shot next time I’m in a similar situation.

Pardon my ignorance (I’m not well versed in the WOZ ruleset) but what exploit is this meant to fix? That you can just backhand the CB over and over? Or is there some other scoring I’m missing?

Two cradled balls on the left flipper makes for a pretty easy shot to the CB. In Rescue you must collect 3 jackpots from the CB. In Melt the Witch hitting the CB 4 times will qualify the shot to the castle VUK.

Problem with the penalty, IMHO, is that you receive it regardless if you use the exploit, or make shots by other means, which I did in the video. That just seems harsh. If the the right inlane being triggered prior to a CB shot reset the countdown to a penalty I would not have received it.

Ah, thanks. I learned something about Rescue and MTW :slightly_smiling:

Getting both balls onto the same flipper could be an intentional skill thing, with the reward being easier CB shots. Not a ton of skill though as you could just shoot the ramp and cradle up. You can do the exact same thing on Star Trek with the left saucer/vuk and repeat that too, but it’s not quite as easy and definitely not as valuable.

Thought about this some more.

I’m sticking to my punishment doesn’t fit the crime(or lack there of) argument.

Seems like it would have made more sense if the CB had to be requalified between shots in these two modes. Hit CB, hit the witch to requalify or something. This would negate the need for a penalty and wouldn’t lead to a player being unfairly penalized when the games assumption of play is off.

This change would be in line with the change seen in the YBR advance shots made early in the code. Early code you could advance the YBR by just hitting the right ramp which just lead to it being hit adnaseum, play was changed to force the player to alternate between Ramp and orbit shots to advance.

but the great and powerful wizard of oz has spoken! :slight_smile:

Note that one can still earn points by repeatedly backhanding the Crystal Ball shot, regardless of whether it is set to award a jackpot. This sort of grind is boring but repeatable, and this is what Keith’s decided to do about it. I guess now there are two ways to start No Hold Flippers…!

1 Like

I’m curious when the punishment ends? Is it for the rest of the ball or for a predetermined amount of time?

Perhaps a software setting to turn it on or off with the default being on might be the compromise in this situation assuming Keith deems a compromise necessary?

It’s on for the rest of the ball. I don’t know if it resets if you lock a ball, like the hurry ups do, but doubt it does.