Why do you want pinball to be more popular?

There is actually a contingent of pinball fans who have felt this way around the move of Pinburgh from PAPA Headquarters (where there was a robust and active tailgate vibe in the parking lot, with a lot of casual drinking and associated levels of rowdiness) to the convention center (which is more clinical, controlled, expensive, etc.) We aren’t immune to these forces either.

I actually think there are a lot of people in pinball who are against growth for this reason. They don’t actually want pinball to grow, they want it to remain the niche sport it always has been. I think this actively colors around a lot of the feelings around the $1 proposal and I wish people would be honest about it if that is how they feel.

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I’m going to give my own answer to why I want pinball to be more popular - I want the people who have created the games and events I love to reap their rewards, and those who play the game at the highest levels, to reap their rewards. I want this even if it means that what comes from that popularity is something I personally hate (which is not unlikely.) I remember when REM was making their climb from clubs to arenas, it drove me crazy on the one hand to go see them in these basketball stadiums with thousands of yahoos yelling “Everybody Hurts” at the top of their lungs. The only thing that made it better was knowing those guys were getting filthy rich and that they deserved every penny for doing something truly great.

I want everyone who creates something great or performs at the top of whatever their chosen path in life is to be rewarded commensurately with that greatness and performance. Stern is doing their best work in history right now, I would argue that much of it surpasses the work of the classic early to mid 90s WMS/Bally games, and I want to see those guys ride it all the way to the moon. They deserve it! The same goes for the players at the top of their game. I will probably personally push hundreds of dollars into those state and national prize pool banks, and while I’ll always have a goal to earn it back, if I don’t I know that I didn’t earn it, and I’m super happy to see whoever did have it.

Greatness deserves success, and poularity is its fuel. I hope for everyone involved in making this hobby great to reap the benefits of it by whatever their own yardstick is.

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As many have pointed out it’s interesting that pinball feels different from other niche things…in that most want it to grow.

Generally…

People don’t want a sudden rise in popularity in their neighborhood. You moved there because you liked the way it was, and more people means more money means higher prices means different shops & restaurants. Or maybe someone will build a house in the empty lot behind yours and you’ll lose the view.

People don’t want a sudden rise in popularity of their favorite band. Their intimate connection with the music will be lost when millions of others have it too. Instead of paying $20 to see them at a small club, you’ll have to pay $80 to sit in the back row of a massive stadium. The musical style might change to accommodate a wider audience.

The things I’ve described above have a limited supply. There is only one of your neighborhood. There is only one of your favorite band. But as long as new pinball machines are coming out, there really isn’t any scarcity. Addams Family doesn’t change. And if too many people get involved, someone will cut a deal and more will be produced.

With pinball…I’m not sure how much the experience will change if it quadrupled in size. More places to play? More machines coming out each year? More remakes? If you want games in your basement, you can still have them. If you like playing alone, you still can. If you like playing with friends, you’ll have even more options. If you’re attached to your 12 person local league/tournament…that might change. In the long term, I think the distribution curve of players per event will remain roughly the same, but there will be more options. If your league gets too big, a smaller one will start up nearby soon.

No matter how many people are into pinball, you’ll never be stuck paying $80 to go play Addams Family in a stadium with 40,000 other people.

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I want pinball to be more popular because I like it.

Now obviously you can look at me and say “of course he likes it, it’s his job.” Trust me, the love for pinball came first, and is the REASON I got into the industry, the REASON I joined my 3rd different pinball company despite having been laid off from both of the 2 previous ones.

Most people thought I was crazy for joining JJP, and I probably was. But I just like it too much. There were other reasons, namely the challenge of making a new system, pioneering a new way forward for pinball, etc. But I wanted to do those things because I love it.

Even though it’s my day job, I still love it enough to try and get to whatever competitions my schedule and family allow me to get to. Wish I could go to more because I love it, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

I’m grateful that people find what I do interesting, and generally love talking to people about it. It’s why I love doing pinball broadcasting; I enjoy talking about pinball, sharing my knowledge about pinball, and hope other people find it interesting to get more interested themselves, more involved, etc.

I started like most people, hanging out on internet time-appropriate fora, whether it was rgp, pinside, rgp2, here. I wish I could shoot the shit more, because as I’ve said, I love it and love talking about it. I wish I could be more open in public how I really feel about things, but sadly it’s viewed as inappropriate. I’ll tell you in person, though.

Yes, there is obviously a vested interest in pinball doing better for me since I’m in a not insignificant position at a rising pinball company. But even if I weren’t at JJP, you can bet I’d still be here, at PAPA, at Pinburgh, on a broadcast, talking to people in person at shows/tournaments because I just love it.

That’s really all there is to it. I wish everyone could “get” it, and I’ll keep trying to help them “get” it however I can.

Gary talked for a long time about how “some fabric of life would be lost” or whatever. Great words for the owner of a company trying to convince people pinball is important. Knowing what I know, it sounds sappy to hear it from him to me, but I actually believe those words. A large part of my fabric for sure would be gone, no doubt about it.

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In general, misbehavior such as this has not been a problem in the competition scene I’m in, but I acknowledge the point. More generally, most people don’t like change and resist it regardless in which direction it goes. “Things are just fine the way they are” works for many because change is disruptive.

None of this will stop me from advocating for more people to play pinball though because I firmly believe that more people will make the hobby stronger and more enjoyable for everyone. And, hypothetically, if the hobby grows so large that I grow tired of competitions because they’ve become “too commercial”, if the scene is as large as that, I won’t have problems finding plenty of pins on location to play with my mates.

I play pinball because I like it. I play competition because that gives me a chance to play more pinball.

It’s not as if I compete because l like it and pinball gives me a chance to compete more…

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On the flip side of my earlier post about gatekeeping, I think a lot of people in pinball don’t show that same level of hostility toward new people because as @ryanwanger mentioned, there’s not too much to hate on new people for. Someone else liking Attack From Mars doesn’t make it less fun, or prohibit you from playing, or raise your costs for playing. Maybe if you’re a collector it might raise prices, but people are already spending 10k for a machine so that part of the hobby is for wealthy people anyway. Location play will only grow with more popularity.

In fighting games there are scrub tactics like spamming Ryu’s Hadouken, which are looked down on. Those tactics are a low effort attempt to cheese your way into being good, so it threatens the egos of the people who spend a lot of time perfecting their tech skill if they can’t beat it. So “pros” label people who play like that as noobs to protect their self-worth and reassure themselves that they’re playing the right way (see David Sirlin - Playing to Win).

In pinball this doesn’t really exist. If you can shoot the same ramp over and over 100 times in a row, that’s just awesome, not a scrub tactic. If you play out of control and never trap up but get the job done, that’s just your style. You being good doesn’t directly mean someone else has to be bad, so the hate for certain overpowered strategies doesn’t really come into play. Plus you can always blame losses on bad luck instead of being outplayed.

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[quote=“ChubbyGoomba, post:19, topic:2658, full:true”]Maybe I’m imagining it, but I think the social aspect of pinball has been helping keep the community in an overall positive nature. Having to interact with others in person is so much easier than trying to douse a flame war. When there’s issues that occur in real life, it’s easier to address any problems in a way that doesn’t feel like a dogpile.
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On the other hand, the echo chamber could also happen in face-to-face interactions, like the occasional convention disaster where a bunch of rowdy people lose their inhibitions and trash the place. But admittedly, that’s a rare occasion, much, much rarer than the toxicity online communities can get.

[quote=“heyrocker, post:21, topic:2658, full:true”]There is actually a contingent of pinball fans who have felt this way around the move of Pinburgh from PAPA Headquarters (where there was a robust and active tailgate vibe in the parking lot, with a lot of casual drinking and associated levels of rowdiness) to the convention center (which is more clinical, controlled, expensive, etc.) We aren’t immune to these forces either.

I actually think there are a lot of people in pinball who are against growth for this reason. They don’t actually want pinball to grow, they want it to remain the niche sport it always has been. I think this actively colors around a lot of the feelings around the $1 proposal and I wish people would be honest about it if that is how they feel.
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Ah, so it does happen in pinball too. I thought that a lot of that sort of behavior would be at competitions set in bars and such, or at least places where that kind of rowdy behavior is normal. I’ve never been to PAPA Headquarters, so I don’t really know what it’s like, and I’m guessing what I see on the streams isn’t the whole picture, as what I see is always pretty civilized and polite.

Say, what is this $1 proposal anyway? I didn’t know about that until I went through Tilt Forums last night, and I couldn’t find where it originated.

That’s an interesting perspective, though of course it also requires people have the composure and maturity not to get ruffled up by the presence of more people, especially with non-interactive media. I mean, bringing to mind the Ghost in the Shell movie example above, if you dislike it so much, and if you dislike Hollywood adapting it so much, you can simply choose not to watch the movie.

Instead, some people are bugged at the fact that other people wanted it to succeed, and some other people even liked the movie!

A common issue I see people talk about regarding newbie booms, in addition, is general annoyance among said newbies. They’re the ones who will ask the obvious questions and ask them repeatedly, do not behave in ways the veterans are used to (due to not knowing the rules and jargon), might not necessarily follow directions or instructions, and otherwise grate on the people who might have grown accustomed to the microculture they’re in.

Theoretically, one can cut oneself off from everyone else into the thing, but then would you even be part of a fandom anymore if you did that? I was once part of a message board many years back that ultimately severed any links to it though, making it such that the only way you knew it existed was if you were already there or through word of mouth.

[quote=“michi, post:25, topic:2658, full:true”]In general, misbehavior such as this has not been a problem in the competition scene I’m in, but I acknowledge the point. More generally, most people don’t like change and resist it regardless in which direction it goes. “Things are just fine the way they are” works for many because change is disruptive.

None of this will stop me from advocating for more people to play pinball though because I firmly believe that more people will make the hobby stronger and more enjoyable for everyone. And, hypothetically, if the hobby grows so large that I grow tired of competitions because they’ve become “too commercial”, if the scene is as large as that, I won’t have problems finding plenty of pins on location to play with my mates.
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That’s what I believe is at the core of the issue in other places too: A fear of change. It’s why I find it interesting, and honestly quite refreshing, that it isn’t here, or at least there isn’t as much of it as I would’ve expected based on past experiences.

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I definitely agree that pinball machine creation greatness should be rewarded, no disagreement on that front.

As far as the competitive scene, I have no issues with the scene growing (Seattle’s scene feels “big enough” already, but clearly we’re the outlier), but personally I would rather the prize pools didn’t grow too out of hand. There’s something appealing about competing for the sake of it, where too many people doing it out of financial interests would take something away from my experience. I think it also puts more scrutiny on how tournaments are run if there’s enough money involved, for instance North Dakota and Washington both sending 1 person to nationals seems absurd to me when there’s a lot of $$$ involved in the Nationals and each state would contribute wildly different amounts to the pool. I’m all for it when there’s relatively little money involved and each state contributes the same $ to the pool, though. The addition of the large prize pool takes something like the state imbalances from “hey cool for that guy from ND to get to go to nationals”, to “wtf ND gets an even shot as everyone else at the national dollar pool?”.

I definitely understand the desire to increase the prize pools from a publicity standpoint, and to motivate more top tier players to travel, but there’s a drawback of more money getting involved that I don’t really see anyone else saying. So, I guess my perspective isn’t common, but I at least wanted to share it.

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This is something I can see being an issue, but there’s an easy way to help curb that. Perhaps a cap (or minimum?) on how much each state is contributing? Any additional dollars could be put back into the states prize pool, or used to help IFPA grow, I wouldn’t care that much honestly where the money ended up as long as it furthered pinball.

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Yeah, I can’t really imagine the nationals tourney will work as currently proposed if the dollar thing actually becomes a thing. My point was largely that getting money involved applies more scrutiny to the system that wouldn’t be there otherwise.

A result of that scrutiny may be that states with budding scenes don’t get to send someone to nationals out of $$$ fairness, which imo is probably what should happen if the dollar thing will go into effect. But in a world without #dollargate, smaller states do get to send someone, and I think that’s a cool thing. Just commentary on what the fallout of getting more money involved can potentially be.

In general, I think the more intangible effects of getting more money involved are what I’m concerned about, though.

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I agree that someone from North Dakota getting a prize amount well beyond their state contribution isn’t “fair”, but the people in Washington are only contributing 25 cents per event to that prizepool (and creating a massive one for themselves with the other 75 cents). I’d think that the benefit of expanding pinball locally would outweigh that unfairness to a few top heavy states.

I have always looked at the SCS as a bit of a sideshow designed to increase interest at the local level, while the majors are the real deal events. (It’s a “sideshow” for the best in the world, while it’s probably the “main event” for the local heroes). I’m not saying this as a slight to the SCS (I’d be bragging to all my non pinball friends if I won the Colorado SCS), but more in support of the idea that the SCS is it’s own thing…you could skip out on the SCS and still easily prove yourself to be the best player on the planet by doing well the dozen other high profile events that happen throughout the year.

However, taking $1 from every event (which I do support) should probably change my “sideshow” categorization. Maybe it thrusts the SCS and Nationals even further into the spotlight as the ultimate reason why you’d play in all those other events?

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Sonic fans can pretty much count on playing their favorite sonic games no matter what, as long as they want, with little to no difficulty on expense. Pinball machines are huge, heavy, physical things, finite in number, that degrade over time, stop working without regular upkeep, that keep getting more and more expensive. If more aren’t being made, fewer and fewer people will get to play them, particularly those like me that have never owned one and there’s a good chance never will. I know the impulse to like something less once it becomes popular. I’d love the chance to someday be the guy mildly resentful because he “liked pinball before it was cool.”

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I could have typed exactly this :slight_smile:

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That scares me a little. :wink:

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It sucks, that, like, ya know, players from 1 state can’t qualify for the SCS in other states. That would be, like, a loophole.

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The primary intercontinental European football league (for club teams, cities), used to be the one national champion (previous national season) from each country heading of 1:1 in a bracket (two legs, home and away). Sort of like IFPA Nationals with one from each state.

Later it was changed for both the qualification and the match system. Now successful countries have more spots. England, Germany, Spain and Italy each have their top-4 teams in. Then France and Russia with 3. Then…

There is complicated algorithm for determaining how many spots each country are having allocated. And how many rounds of byes each spot receives. With four qualification rounds leading up to the main tournament of 32 teams.

Alrorithm based on performance in previous seasons.

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Our early projections with the 95% attrition rate out of WA is that ND will actually have a bigger contribution to Nationals than WA in 2018 :wink:

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The Australian scene has had it’s fair share of protectionism from the old guard for sure, and while the situation has improved as the influx of new players continues, it still exists in pockets.

I used to find people being resistant to the scene growing and changing as completely baffling. But I grew to understand (not necessarily agree) with it as I attended more events that had a long history, and that included many of these people regularly. Stumbling into conversations where they are discussing a pinball story of their trip to the USA or another country 20 years ago, visiting pinball sites and shipping them back to Australia - it dawned on me that these people have a history with the game that others couldn’t even comprehend. They know it intimately, and for good or bad, new players coming in and trying to stamp their authority can rub the old guard the wrong way. Who are we to tell them how to play or enjoy their games?

Anyway, what I have experienced as negative in the Australian scene is what you could describe as passive aggressive. I haven’t seen any outright aggressive and abhorrent behaviour such as you see in the video game scene (I have a much longer history with that than my few years in pinball!). I quit competitive video gaming a long time ago after experiencing some really horrible people, thankfully that hasn’t happened in pinball. At least not to that level anyway. Though I have some stories I’d be willing to discuss in private over a beer rather than on an internet forum!

Why do I personally want pinball to be more popular? I think it’s one of the best competitive ‘sports’ or games on the planet, and think it deserves a wider audience and for it to be much bigger. eSports are getting massive at the moment and pinball deserves a slice of that pie. If anything for my own selfish enjoyment of watching competitive pinball streams!

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That’s the thing–there are fandoms for physical objects that are no longer in production except by these fans. A good example is steam locomotives. Obviously, no one makes them anymore, and there’s nothing a steam locomotive can do that something else can’t do better, but there are enough people with the dedication and money to restore these locomotives, and maybe even operate them for show.

I think I’m going off on a tangent now, so I ought to pull myself back. You do bring up a good point though: It IS something that requires constant money coming in and is in danger of dying, not just the industry but the fans, quicker than most other things. To that extent, I can see why there’d be a lot of pinball fans who are afraid of its death, unlike many other fandoms.

I also see a sort of delusion with the sort of fan who is all too willing to put the creators out to pasture: They might think that it means it’ll die with dignity, but at the same time, they think that they can continue to be into that thing forever. In some cases, they actually do, but once a fandom stagnates, it’s going to slowly burn out as people leave, like a dwarf star, and as people leave, there will be less to do, prompting more people to leave because the social aspect is no longer there. The delusion, also, would come in a variant of object permanence, with the assumption that whatever state the fandom was in when the source died is the state the fandom will be in for all of eternity.

This is why I, personally, would fight to keep anything I’m a fan of from truly dying, and I am willing to make compromises for that. I have been part of that white dwarf phase of a fandom before, and it is a total drag, something I don’t want to see firsthand again.

[quote=“Mar, post:38, topic:2658, full:true”]The Australian scene has had it’s fair share of protectionism from the old guard for sure, and while the situation has improved as the influx of new players continues, it still exists in pockets.

I used to find people being resistant to the scene growing and changing as completely baffling. But I grew to understand (not necessarily agree) with it as I attended more events that had a long history, and that included many of these people regularly. Stumbling into conversations where they are discussing a pinball story of their trip to the USA or another country 20 years ago, visiting pinball sites and shipping them back to Australia - it dawned on me that these people have a history with the game that others couldn’t even comprehend. They know it intimately, and for good or bad, new players coming in and trying to stamp their authority can rub the old guard the wrong way. Who are we to tell them how to play or enjoy their games?

Anyway, what I have experienced as negative in the Australian scene is what you could describe as passive aggressive. I haven’t seen any outright aggressive and abhorrent behaviour such as you see in the video game scene (I have a much longer history with that than my few years in pinball!). I quit competitive video gaming a long time ago after experiencing some really horrible people, thankfully that hasn’t happened in pinball. At least not to that level anyway. Though I have some stories I’d be willing to discuss in private over a beer rather than on an internet forum!

Why do I personally want pinball to be more popular? I think it’s one of the best competitive ‘sports’ or games on the planet, and think it deserves a wider audience and for it to be much bigger. eSports are getting massive at the moment and pinball deserves a slice of that pie. If anything for my own selfish enjoyment of watching competitive pinball streams!
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Ah, so it DOES happen, huh? I figured with the number of people playing pinball, and the somewhat protective nature of some bars, there’d be this attitude to a significant extent. (I didn’t play many arcade games when I was younger. Much of it was due to my father, but some of it was due to the exclusionist cliques that formed around most of the local arcades who would bully outsiders.)

So you’ve seen the kind of elitism in video game competitions then too, huh? That is what I grew up with and that is what I’m used to seeing. I know I mentioned it before, but I left the competitive collectible card game scene for similar reasons: There was a lot of gamesmanship going on, as well as crooked, abusive, and borderline criminal behavior that I left.

All in all, it looks like what it comes down to is a willingness to compromise. It sounds like pinball fans are willing to bend and make concessions if it means being able to reach out to the mainstream. Most of the hardcore fans of other things I’ve mentioned is unwilling to compromise even an angstrom. They will keep whatever they’re a fan of pure and sacred at all costs. Doesn’t seem to be as many pinball fans, even the hardcore ones, who view pinball as something pure and sacred that cannot be changed at all.

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I’d be interested in hearing those. Not because I like to to grope around in the muck, but because I bet it’s an interesting thing to learn about. There is lots to learn about what makes people (and crowds) tick from examples such as this. Beer is on me next time we meet :slight_smile:

I do understand how the old timers might feel about how the “young guns” have no idea what pinball is all about. (For the record, I started playing 45 years ago, so I’m an old-timer myself.) But then, isn’t that elevating the hobby/culture to a level that is unjustified? It’s a fact of life that new people enter a hobby when they are young, and that old people leave the hobby when they lose interest or die. If we don’t accept that, and the change that comes along with it, we’ll end up with a bunch of old farts who try to keep things locked up in amber until they are finally dead, and then there is no hobby anymore, for anyone. That doesn’t strike me as the right way to keep alive something that people supposedly hold dear.

Maybe I’ve just been fortunate with my local scene. I started playing pinball again (after a 30-year hiatus) exactly one year ago. When I rocked up to my first club meeting, I didn’t know anyone from a bar of soap. But people were really (really!) friendly, welcomed me, gave me tips on how to play a particular game that I had never seen before, and were generally easy-going and nice. I felt welcome, safe, appreciated, and accepted. It was an all-round good experience. That’s probably the reason why I kept it up. If I had gotten the impression that this was some sort of elite and exclusive crowd, I simply would have walked away and given it a miss.

Full marks to the Aussie crowd for being such a bunch of nice guys!

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