Okay, please let me know who you mean and I’ll look into it; if you prefer to send a direct message, cool. I thought you meant Mike Lukianoff.
I think part of the problem here is that the term “sandbagging” is being used as a synonym to this:
Do those really equal each other? I don’t think so.
Yes, every year the cut lines change slightly, but can be inferred pretty accurately based on previous years cuts and some critical thinking.
I don’t think anything done at the divisional level (larger/smaller divisions, adding a 5th, etc) will do anything to mitigate the behavior of players trying to play at the level they feel comfortable with. For this to change I do feel players would need to have the ability to select the division they compete in.
This all withstanding, I think the question becomes: should players always try and win every single game they play in a format that makes you “play” into divisions? I argue no. For as much bloviating as we do about “situational play” and “situational awareness” how is this any different?
What I do think is very shameful is a player, whom I know and will not be named, who was playing one-handed in Round 5 this year. That I think is a very, very bad example for everyone around that player, and if I had seen it going on in the moment would have immediately brought it to a TD’s attention.
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I should say the tournament was great, run smoothly, when our group started a bank with two machines out you came and gave quick and easy direction and I can’t think of a thing about that side of things that wasn’t handled great. It would be great to see a single row of chairs between the banks though.
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The one-handed play is a farce and is completely messed up. I wish that had been brought to our attention immediately. That is disgusting.
The staff discussed whether to make an announcement about this before Round 5, and decided it might induce more people to consider doing so. It seems like we really need to address this.
One reason we don’t allow people to pick their own divisions is that it can create deep runaways on Day 1, say a player who at 40-20 had pre-selected B and otherwise the cutoff is 33-27. If and when this happens it would further promote players to pre-select down.
It’s a hard problem. The other solution, which I hate, is to just make it 4 tournaments from the get-go, and have people choose one to enter.
Thanks for your ideas, Austin!
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I think a few of the people bragging about sandbagging (I didn’t hear anyone) may have been trying to save face. I think many people (like myself) are used to being a top player locally and felt like they would easily qualify for A or B. When they end up in C or D some people would rather lie and say they intentionally sandbagged. I’ve seen this in smaller tourneys too, where a good player does poorly and rather than just admit they had a bad day they will claim they weren’t really trying.
Personally I’d remove most if not all prize money from B-D. If you qualify for finals you get a medal or something. If you make final 4 you get a shirt/small trophy/plaque. If you win B/C/D - maybe you get some small amount of cash. Like $600 for B, $400 for C and $200 for D. I know personally I don’t care about prize money. I just want WPPRs and to play with the best players possible.
This is the only solution I can think of that would eliminate sandbagging w/o making big changes to the format of the tournament. Not that I would be opposed to big changes like having multiple tournaments.
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Another aspect that plenty of people love, that this solution would all but completely remove, is the opportunity to play in meaningful games against high level players. It can be a unique opportunity.
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I really couldn’t believe it when another of our league players told me. What I find even more shameful is this player is fairly new to competitive pinball, so that leaves a secondarily poor taste.
I’m at work and was tired of typing but yes. This. It is a very hard problem.
I still don’t believe this would eliminate sandbagging, because most people would still rather get a plaque than get into A and have zero chance of getting anything. To be honest, when I hear players talk about sandbagging, the biggest thing is they just want to play on Day 3. I never hear money come into those discussions.
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Expo Mega-Bracket clearly the solution
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D should be for noobs.
A/B/C should be combined on Friday. Take top 120 into Saturday. 1-40 A Finals, 41-80 B Finals, 81-120 C Finals.
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Hm.
I’m not gonna rat on my friends or passerby for sandbagging, that’s ridiculous and wouldn’t solve anything. This is lower division pinball, not Watergate. I will however shame them for their participation in the Beeflympics and stress the benefits of playing with better players and how it can help them in the future even if it hurts their chances today. You catch more flies with honey and walking around with a tape recorder to out sandbaggers isn’t going to solve anything.
Yeah I had some friends who were enthusiastic, strategic consumers of the Beef buffet, filling their plate with chuck when they could have afforded at least sirloin. But they all beefed out anyway, and now they have to listen to me making fun of them all year for their pathetic attempts to season up some London broil, and in the end coming away with nothing but shame and gristle.
It’s not as big an issue as some think but there’s way more of it than there should be. It doesn’t affect me anyway since I’m up in A at the salad bar while they are gorging on Grade C blue meat. I think public pressure and even encouragement is the way to go here rather than going full hall monitor. For the most part, people figure this out on their own. And you can beef all you want there’s absolutely no guarantee you’ll come away with anything.
The whole thing makes me laugh more than it makes me angry.
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To be clear I don’t think sandbagging is a huge issue, and certainly not an issue worth making major changes to the format over. All tournament formats have pros and cons, and the combination of those creates a specific vibe for each one. People can sandbag here, it sucks but its fine.
I agree with @bkerins that if someone is going to be as blatant as to play one handed then it should be called out. If someone in my group was openly talking about sandbagging, I would probably quietly pull them aside and explain the rules to them and let it go at that.
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I know I didn’t sandbag. I just played really nervous and over controlling bad the first day… I’d rather had a $15 medal than any cash prize. Cash is gone in days that trophy or medal is around a long time. Higher the division the better to me. I’ll be the one that knows every time I see it. I heard plenty of talk. I guess someone needs to set a cut line or that will just be part of the strategy for some people. It’s 800 people and some are there for their own reasons. If you don’t put a cut line and people sand bag what can you say? I’d been fine if I wasn’t eligible for D and was kind of surprised I was. To be fair I’ve never qualified at PAPA or Pinburgh and only at some circuit events. I’ve spent more time focused on organizing and running than I have playing and that shows in my rank.
I kept saying it was bizzaroworld n00b players at the top in A and some really good players in C and D. It didn’t bother me it was just a weird observations at the time. I love Pinburgh and cant wait to do it again. My legs are saying Fthat but its the truth. Thanks to Doug, Bowen, MHS, Kevin, Elizabeth, Fred, Pete and so many others that put their time in to make this amazing show on and sacrifice their time and chances of playing in it to allow us to. Pittsburgh has the bets community of people up there and go above and beyond to help so many enjoy this hobby and sport.
Its hard to please everyone in a small tournament much less one of this magnitude. I can’t back seat drive and only tip my hat and realize things are going to be bumpy and just enjoy the fun ride 
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ZenTron’s idea seems feasible. It would mean the top divisions of experienced players would get to finals, no sandbagging. Currently, large groups of people ‘between’ divisions lose out despite playing better than leagues of people beneath them. This would mean I wouldn’t have missed C by a point but likely by many, but that would more correctly reflect the outcome of the overall play of the field.
And nothing about any of my previous posts should be taken as a suggestion that I knew anyone that sandbagged. The main point of my post is that I think D should be restricted to really new players. Other than that I love the format, selection of players and fact that I played 40 meaningful games against 30 people I’ve never met before. Played and met people from many ‘corners’ of the globe.
Looking forward to my third Pinburgh!
So there’s 2 separate issues being discussed here, and the one that’s getting the most attention (sandbagging) I’ve been on record for years and years that I hate it. Restrictions are a great way to tighten it up, but it’s a very difficult and fine line to walk, and it will probably never be perfect. I too have heard people bragging about sandbagging over the years, but I don’t know what can really be done.
The collusion, however, is much more worrying to me. For me personally, I’ve been in the following situations:
- Top 4 group, no one has any possibility of not making the finals. Everyone still played hard presumably to get the best seed they could for game choice, etc.
- Group around 16-24 seeds or so. From here, you probably needed a 4 to make sure you were still in finals. Everyone still played hard to try and get a bye (which I eventually got due to a tiebreaker game).
- Group near the bottom of the top 40 where everyone needed a 6 to make finals. Everyone played hard here because by this point (it was last year) everyone knew how many spots you could move up with one win. I won the group with a 9 I think it was and wound up seeded 22nd, which meant I got bank choice, but not really since I was the last chooser. 2 other players from the group made it in, 1 did not.
I can tell you for certain that everyone was exactly aware of what each of those final rounds meant to everyone and that it was probably even mentioned out loud, but no one I was involved with did any less than their best AFAIK because seeding, byes, and getting in all matter.
The fact that people would actively game it so they all got in is pretty disgusting to me.
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Sure it’s fun for you because you can afford the sirloin. Not much fun for people like me that can only afford the chuck but are forced to buy the sirloin. … I don’t even know what I’m talking about anymore.
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I heard that the new round 10 format was a direct result of the type of collusion you are speaking of.
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This…
When the divisions are set based on a single day… on a format that is INTENTIONALLY throwing wild things at players… and the split is only 1-6 game finish positions over 20 games… Divisions aren’t always going to be mapped purely based on what people perceive the player’s abilities to be.
Think about it… one player can get a draw on a bank that has an EM that is completely bonkers to that player and they get a zero. That zero can mean the difference between top of B… and C cutoff.
The sample set and measure is not big enough to really differentiate between skill and momentary performance. This is why the point spread IS so tight in the middle 60+% of the field. Add into the wildness the make-up of the players in a group and these things really shouldn’t be a surprise.
The qualifying format isn’t doing enough to accurately measure people’s ‘potential’. And people are upset players are being grouped based on PERFORMANCE rather than potential.
As someone who regularlly plays with great players in our league and does well… but also regularly does poorly in Pittsburg… I have empathy for those who end up in lower divisions ‘than they should’. If I actually won something, I’d be moved up anyways 
I think the problem is worst at the A/B line simply because the skill curve at the top of these divisions makes it very difficult for some one to get restricted due to past performance… and the skill range is so different at the top of A, it’s very difficult for low A players to be competitive.
The problem where the curve swings the most (at the very top, and at the very bottom) are the hardest divisions to make fair.
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My beef with that logic is… The rankings aren’t the same format as Pinburg. And rankings are more about the participation levels then they are the skill levels. Nor should you throw key elements of your tournament to an outside party that constantly reworks and reshapes what it’s rankings actually do.
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