I am curious about finances. People here speculate in the need for PAPA to grow the turnover.
However, I was under the impression, that the PAPA/Replay structure did return every $ spend at their tournaments as prizes to the players. Isn’t this correct?
So, and if so, a need to increase the turnover would be rooted in a need to increase the prize pool. Which I fail to understand, really, as there seems to be massive interest from both top level players and in general. Growing each year.
Plus, in the traditional system, players would pay for attempts they would later choose to discard.
If the goal is to increase the money spend, and with the infamous lines in mind, and if the traditional format is not sacred, I guess bumping the machine banks to double or triple sizes would do the trick.
I have never seen any communication that PAPA returns all entry money as prizes to players.
One thing I see when people are talking about finances here is the assumption that the prize pool is the tournament’s only expense. I think that is incredibly naive. I would not be surprised to learn that the money raised by the event doesn’t even cover the costs to simply open the space to the public, much less the prize pool. Internet, electric, water, garbage, insurance. All are serious expenses (and remember that many of these get paid year round because its not like the facility just goes dark other than these four days a year.) That isn’t even touching issues around game acquisition and maintenance.
I’m easily as bummed as anyone about the change. My first PAPA was 5, and for about ten events there I went every single year I could (moving overseas and finances rendered it more difficult recently.) My memories of these events are some of the best I have. However if PAPA wants to continue into the future indefinitely, which I think we all want, it needs to be self-sustainable and I applaud the group’s efforts to reach that goal.
Edit: I’m not sure if the 1023 form was filed or the 990-PF for Fiscal Year 2015. Regardless, the information is public and obtainable to a certain extent.
I think saying this is insulting to the agency of everyone involved. It’s absolutely OK to be “incredibly disappointed” or feel that the change is a “great shame”. The other two are maybe a little less respectful but I think it’s not hard to understand that people will be sad when a unique highly skillful format bites the dust, especially in favor of a format that seems to repel casuals/novices like"Off!".
The real insult is that we’ve never made a change (or decision) people didn’t complain about. I’ve listened to more people crap all over the PAPA format in the last several years than I can count. It was literally one of the lowest rated formats in our surveys. I have e-mails from probably a dozen people in this exact thread who have privately suggested major changes over the years because they weren’t happy with the format or how things have been done.
These changes were enacted primarily due to both player responses and financial concerns related to the old format, and quite frankly, as a member of this community, it’s disgusting to me that after all PAPA has done and given (and all the money it has LOST attempting to grow pinball) that it still doesn’t ever get the benefit of the doubt. Also, the PAPA format isn’t some higher calling; it’s a pinball format, and it’s been changed MULTIPLE TIMES throughout the years for various reasons.
If anyone wants to talk to me, you know my e-mail or phone. I cringed when someone sent me this link, and now I’m officially done with feedback on forums. The signal to noise ratio sucks.
For those of us that aren’t top-A players, it is most definitely not fun to finally get a good score on those super-tough PAPA machines and then watch it get completely wasted by the rest of a ticket. This change gives players instant and permanent satisfaction when they have a good game.
And there’s another reason the old format wasn’t much fun. Once you get past the novelty of “hey, I’m competing in A against the best in the world!” it feels like just flushing money down the toilet when you’re locked to A with no realistic chance of qualifying. With this change, you can make meaningful progress towards a final set of six games and not feel like you have to catch lightning in a bottle, or feel like you’ve wasted $25 when you tank the first two games on a ticket.
Really, the top players are still going to qualify, nothing is going to change there. This is more about the rest of us.
Zeroes aren’t a concern for me. I was just responding to the belief that isn’t as true as it was in the past that the PAPA format required maximum consistency.
It would seem that all you are doing is making it like almost any other tournament. Just cause something is different doesn’t mean it’s bad. It would seem that the pressure of a 5 game run would be better to determine the best player at the time as opposed to being able to keep playing unlimited games without the pressure of have a bad couple games.
Go Lefkoff! Nuanced as frig. It’s understandable if you need to pay the bills. Pinburgh killed your attendance. I would suspect that this isn’t going to make it any more “fun”. People are just going to drop even huger bombs with multiple attempts, still will be frustrating for the mortals. Maybe it will work who knows. If it’s about making it more “fun” for everyone just do 2 Pinburghs a year lol. 300 spots at the old facility, to get in auction style, highest bidders get in. You’ll make millions.
We used PAPA classics format for Vancouver Flip-Out’s classic tourney last month. It was new to most players in the area, but seems like it was very well received. @kdeangelo got DTM’s virtual queuing to work with PAPA classic format, and it worked without a hitch!
I don’t know who is providing the “not-fun” feedback; certainly not my perspective. I haven’t missed a PAPA since PAPA 3, and that more difficult and challenging format is one of the things that has drawn be towards that specific tourney year after year. I’m sad to see it go.
I don’t really have a preference to the format. To me, both styles (Herb and PAPA Format) both classify as “pump 'n dumps”–many players are going to be spending stupid kinds of money at either format. Have a bad game in a Herb? Well, you’re going to be paying to play it again. Have a bad ticket in the PAPA Format? You’re going to be buying a new ticket.
My favorite change is the fact that all the games will be on Free Play. Part of the reason to go is to enjoy the PAPA collection, easily one of the largest out there. The door entry is pretty negligible to me since I’ll easily spend that in a day on random games in the building.
I’d like to echo others’ suggestions for a queue system. I have experienced these at various events and the result is a much more enjoyable experience, because I can actually go and do things while still technically waiting in line (like enjoy the other games there as mentioned above). Hopefully this can be implemented in future PAPA iterations.
What I am gathering is that the entire PAPA collection is on Free Play, not just the bank games. The bank games are always on Free Play anyway and I’d wager as usual they will only be playable by people submitting entries.
