To be fair, I made an identical ruling on that Fish Tales which @85vett referred to earlier. In my case I determined that the ball, although it appeared to be resting on the post, was actually resting on a cupped inlane insert. In that case the rules are that the ball is a stuck ball and returns to a flipper.
“A ball which has come to rest on top of a center post, an inlane-outlane post/guide or a lamp insert/playfield divot directly above an outlane will not be considered a stuck ball.”
The ball was not resting on top of the post, it was against it, which led me to rule it as a stuck ball. I think there might be some ambiguity here, but that is how I determined my ruling.
In the moment, I did not reference this rule directly. I had a previous ruling at Pinburgh that I remembered and used to make my own ruling.
Personally, I would like it if rules were cited whenever rulings are made. I think this could solve issues where players disagree with an official and also expose ambiguities in the rules (both IFPA and local tournament) and help refine and revise them.
What would the correct answer be? At first guess I’d say minor malfunction, but since it’s a premature loss of ball that would jump to major malfunction. But in the rules it looks like it specifically calls out kickback as not a major malfunction, so minor malfunction? (assuming it’s not a recurring issue)
Could a sensitive slam tilt switch be ruled “not functioning properly” or is this rule intended for other problems like a loose wire or object interfering with the switch?
Last week a player tried to save a ball (B1) on AFMr by aggressively nudging/sliding the game but because the floor was concrete it kind of hopped and stuttered across the floor. On AFMr the slam tilt switch is on the cabinet bottom, so this up and down vibration triggered a slam tilt. The player felt like the motion he caused shouldn’t have caused a slam tilt. Could this be ruled a malfunction of the slam tilt sensor?
It was ruled a DQ. It was a best of 3 head-to-head match and the player won the other 2 games, so the ruling didn’t matter in the end.
I have a big problem with this logic. The ruling did matter regardless of what happened in the end. I feel that this attitude of rulings don’t matter until results are in, is counterproductive
The ball was not resting on top of the post, it was against it, which led me to rule it as a stuck ball. I think there might be some ambiguity here, but that is how I determined my ruling.
Do you think that the point is, that had it come off, it would surely be in the inlane? That would be consistent with the following rule, even if the exact situation is different:
“If the ball is stuck on any playfield element that is located between the flippers, the ball will be considered a stuck ball if there is no chance of a drain from the ball rolling off of its resting place.”
Either way, this maybe should be clarified in the rules.
Another situation that might be debatable (unless the forum already has gone down this path), would be when a ball comes to rest on the inlane/outlane post during multiball. Since such a ball “will not be considered a stuck ball”, would the rule “If a ball becomes stuck during a multiball mode, the player should attempt to trap the other ball(s) in play and request assistance.” not be relevant? I think the intention is that the ball is stuck in relation to multiball (player must cradle up and unstuck the not-really-stuck ball), but in that case, shouldn’t it be mentioned, just as “a ball ending up in the plunger lane … counts as a stuck ball” is mentioned?
Pretty sure player would have to trap for assistance. The benefit the player receives from the situation is still the same - multiball without all the balls on the table, and potential for single-ball “multiball” play.
TD should check to make sure it’s not an actual problem with the kickback assembly. If it fails because the switch/coil literally don’t work, then it’s a Major Malfunction.
If the switch/coil behave normally when testing, then it’s ‘normal, play on’.
Pretty sure player would have to trap for assistance. The benefit the player receives from the situation is still the same - multiball without all the balls on the table, and potential for single-ball “multiball” play.
Sure, but is it not a problem that the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are different, for no good reason?
I’ve always felt this paragraph addresses that situation:
“Any ball that comes to rest in an outlane, where any portion of the ball is below the outlane post, is not deemed a stuck ball. In these instances, players will have the option of attempting to free the ball themselves or to ask a tournament official to manually trigger the outlane switch and drain the ball for them. Please note that when this happens in multiball, in no way will a player be allowed to take advantage of this situation by continuing to play any other balls currently available. The situation of this ball that has come to rest needs to be dealt with immediately by either the player or tournament director. Also, please note that any ball coming to rest on the apron is considered as having come to rest in the outlane and should be treated as such.”
I didn’t add all the details, kickback was operating ok. Sometimes when the ball drains super fast the switch doesn’t recognize it. Again, the top ranked player knew what happened and knew the ruling, he was just testing me.
I’ve always felt this paragraph addresses that situation:
“Any ball that comes to rest in an outlane, where any portion of the ball is below the outlane post, is not deemed a stuck ball…
Well, no portion of the ball is below the outlane post. The next paragraph deals with that: “A ball which has come to rest on … an inlane-outlane post…” and that paragraph doesn’t refer to the previous, which it could have done.
My reference to that rule is being able to reference verbiage that dictates deciding whether any ball being “stuck” or “not stuck” doesn’t give a player a right to simply play on at their discretion.
All situations where a ball has come to rest need to be dealt with immediately and not after a player has drained all other balls in the multiball.
One option in the rules would be to call both of these situations “stuck” then make it clear that only some stuck balls can be returned to flippers.
I feel the “that’s not a stuck ball” comments, which happen often in these situations, are confusing to people without deep rules knowledge, partially because the arcade definition of “stuck ball” is different.
I mostly agree. However, part of setting up games for tournament play is to check to see if a game has a slam tilt switch and if it does, to make sure it’s at least somewhat looser than the regular tilt (if not completely disabled).
If I’m getting slam tilts before tilt warnings, I’m going think hard about going back to another event where that same person is doing setup. I’ve always completely disabled slam tilts before an event. Bend contacts as far away from each other as possible or electrical tape, done. I suspect in this case it may have been overlooked or they didn’t have keys. If it was me and I didn’t get a warning, I’d accept the DQ, then suggest to the setup person(s) that they should check slam tilts before the event in the future.
Get your normal tilt setting right and you won’t need a slam tilt.
You have to remember that a stated philosophy behind the PAPA/IFPA rules is (I’m paraphrasing) “if in doubt, screw the player.” If you don’t agree with this philosophy, modify the rules for your events.
Except where the ball has come to rest touching a player-controlled mechanism, right? AFAIK, having a ball trapped under an upper flipper, like on TSPP, is not considered stuck because the player can raise the flipper at any time. Extremely technically speaking, it would also cover a ball in a basic cradle being not stuck even though “at rest” because the player simply flips to move it again.
