Sorry, “flopped” means that the flippers point down the drain slightly, rather than the rolling edge of the flipper being perfect aligned with the angle of feed from the lane? I’m open to any recollections of where descriptions of this stuff lives.
SunsetShimmer, whenever you break out the tvtropes, I always go way down the rabbit hole.
I remember playing several Williams Indiana Jones on test. The right ramp was only makeable early on when the game was new or first powered up. So in production they lowered the flippers to give more power to make the outer shots. That was great for IJ but not for TZ which was on the production line at the same time. We played a TZ at FunLand for the PAPA Flippoff’s in 93, and the opposite center ramps were only makeable from a cradle. Recently I played a tourney at Flippers OBX. Pretty much most of the Sterns there had the wrong flipper stops, making the flipper come up higher and easier to trap. Normally, on a GB you’re able to hit the left ramp consequatively with the right flipper. Since the angle was changed, the sweet or strong spot was now a backhand shot. So really the only way to hit the left ramp was to backhand it from the left flipper. I like to align my flippers with the return lane ball guide.
I was under this impression about the coil stops on my ST Pro after a rebuild. When I inquired with the part distributor, I was told that it was because they’d been shipping plunger replacements that were a little bit shorter than the originals (which would also cause extra flipper travel). This was probably like a year ago? They sent me replacements of the proper length at no charge, much better.
I’ve geeked out on this particular topic way too much, and here is where I’ve landed: I like to set up everything as close to factory as possible, and then adjust from there based on how it feels (or tournament needs). Pitch can have a pretty significant affect on how shots feel as well.
“Take responsibility for your drains” . . . somehow every bad beat I’ve ever heard is about the game f*cking the player 95% of the time.
There’s a rather large group of people that feel the game of pinball entitles them to a certain level of control, when IMO pinball has never been a game that guarantees you ANYTHING. To me that’s always been the draw to pinball, that constant battle of trying to control the chaos.
I don’t think Keith’s issue an a Technician vs. Performer issue. I think it’s about the game providing an overall skill challenge that is more than just about shot making. At least that’s how I see it for myself.
Pinball isn’t a 100% control game, and if we want the sport to grow ala poker, there needs to be a higher element of randomness and chance that gives the PERCEPTION that anyone has a shot at winning. Notice I say “perception” because I’m pretty sure KME has the most PAPA CLASSICS titles out of anyone on the planet as well.
This! +1000. At some point I realised there was always something I could have done differently. Especially a house ball. Plunge better! Nudge earlier. I started to enjoy events more with the mindset of I could have played better, than the machine made it impossible for me to save. I forget sometimes, but play better when I remind myself.
(Caution. Advice from a B level player)
I try to remind myself of 3 things while I am playing.
I think that on average, pinball tends to appeal to, engage, and reward people who are more on the performer side, relative to video games. I think this is part of why many people find the physical nature of pinball to be fun, and maybe part of the reason that video games overtook pinball in the first place.
The toothpick method caused confusion, which is why they switched the holes to the tip of the flippers. For every person that says the the toothpick should go between the bat and the rubber on older games, another person will tell you the toothpick goes behind the rubber. Moving the holes to the tip of the flippers made it idiot proof. Align the flippers straight with the hole. Hard to get wrong.
If either the alignment holes or the flipper bushing holes are off when the game is being built, someone is going to notice. The playfield won’t make it out of the building. Either the flippers won’t be symmetrical or the alignment holes will be visibly off. Those 4 holes are about the 4 most important holes on the playfield. Have you ever seen non-symmetrical flippers out of the box or crooked alignment holes? I sure haven’t.
I learned from watching others that the best way to set up a game for tournament play is to do as little as possible. You want the player to feel like he ‘knows’ the game, but not play all day. Jack up the back legs, open or remove outlane posts, tighten the tilt. That’s also the philosophy I used on my locations games. Still do for my home games. Changing flipper angle from factory is too big of a change IMO. I think superbands are too much too, but that’s pretty much a done deal now.
I have learned in talking with PAPA Jon over the last year, that the real goal of pinball is to play as mistake free as possible. I disagree that there is always something you could do differently, because things don’t always happen the same.
For instance, I forget which EM I was playing the other day, but most of the time off the plunge, the ball went through the right lane at the top of the playfield it resulted in a trap on the right flipper, no nudging necessary. In fact, to nudge the ball coming through that lane would be a mistake, because the trap on the right flipper would be in jeopardy and the ball would be loose. But something like 5% of the time, the ball came through that upper lane a little differently and went SDTM. Nothing to be done. I felt like a 95% chance at a ball on the right flipper was the preferred skillshot, but in the span of a five ball game I was housed SDTM twice. In my opinion, I didn’t make a mistake treating the plunge the way I did, but there was something I could have done differently to save those balls.
I like your play mistake free disscription, and I think it can coexist with my thinking. I tell myself I could have done something. Not that I should have done something different, or know what I could have done. It is just my way of owning my drains.
This is a super interesting discussion to me. How safe is safe enough. 5% chance of being house balled, means about a 23% chance of getting a house ball over 5 balls on the plunge alone. There is about a 2% change of the 2 house balls you got. Which sounds low, but it is going to happen to someone in the tournament.
Probably this should be a different thread, but seemed I didn’t understand how to quote into a new thread on mobile.
Is risk accessment mostly expectation maximisation? Obviously, your opponent’s score matter, otherwise situational play wouldn’t matter. Programming a computer to play Pinball with randoms noise shot accuracy, how should you program it.
Exactly! That’s why one of my favorite tournament games is Frontier. Getting the ball back under control after a shot is in itself a skill. Along with tap passing and the strategy of when to go for the risky shots.
hahaha. As others have mentioned, quite the opposite. I need to find you the video footage of @sk8ball and Scared Stiff’s Bony Beast ramp.
The good news for us is that the best competitive player on the planet (a Technician if I’ve ever seen one) is ALSO interested in how the sport is perceived and how to grow it.
Yes how I play in tournaments is drastically different than how I play on location for fun (rare exception is when I see a JLS score at Level 257 and feel the need to take it down 
)
I can’t believe this asshole is moving to Chicago 
I am fully aware of his cosmic-level skill. The dichotomy is about how someone who’s really good at something behaves when there are spectators, how much they care about keeping things interesting (including to themselves), and their overall demeanor. That Keith can be a repeat world champion AND perform to the crowd demonstrates just how good he is.
Huh. I’ve been playing Ghostbusters machines here and there and I noticed what I can shoot with each flipper, and how I have to time my shots, varies a lot with every machine I’ve played, more so than most other machines. What you said actually explains a lot about why there’s so much variation.
Don’t worry, I’m not one of those control freaks, if I came across like one–I’ve just socialized with a lot of them, so I got used to their logic and I know how they tick. Even Richard Sirlin believes that 100% control is a bad thing (and this man spends YEARS balance-testing one game and is the ultimate Stop Having Fun Guy):
“Games with perfect information and no randomness inevitably degenerate into more and more memorization until they eventually become 100% memorization once they’re completely solved. They “break” more easily and sooner than games with some hidden information, randomness, or something to break up the rigidity.”
(I don’t know if Sirlin’s made any thoughts about pinball, however.)
Of course, since I’m not one of those people who want 100% control in every game they play, I can’t speak for them with anywhere near perfect clarity, just based on what they tell me and what I notice observing them behave. I wouldn’t be surprised if such people have significant overlap with people who want to keep their games niche though (as in the idea that they’re not interested in looking good to outsiders, and might even intentionally cultivate a repulsive image to keep outsiders out).
[quote=“tjuchcin, post:26, topic:2391, full:true”]I think that on average, pinball tends to appeal to, engage, and reward people who are more on the performer side, relative to video games. I think this is part of why many people find the physical nature of pinball to be fun, and maybe part of the reason that video games overtook pinball in the first place.
[/quote]
Hmm, that makes sense. The divide would’ve gotten started in the arcade, where people who wanted to have total control over the games they play would go to Street Fighter II or CarnEvil. I do wonder if that might be why video gaming is associated with introversion and pinball seems to be an extroverted activity, though it might just be because one is commonly seen as a solitary activity in the house and the other a social activity in the arcade/bar.
(There is definitely such a divide in video games though: A couple of years ago at EVO, one of the players in the quarterfinals playing Mortal Kombat 9 did not perform a Fatality, the only quarterfinalist who had the opportunity to do so but didn’t. It caused a lot of moans and groans from the audience, and when the commentator asked why, he said that he didn’t know how to do any–he focused only on what would let him win. The commentator repeated it to the audience in astonishment, in a “Can you believe what he just said?” way.)
Is he actually a technician? I figured that if he’s interested in putting on a good show, even if it’s in support of rules that make watching more interesting, that’d fall under the performer category. I’d say a pure technician would really only be interested in rules that either 1) favor that person as heavily as possible, or 2) have it be as fair to all players as possible, without concern for if it’s interesting.
I guess that’s the thing though: While the description under TV Tropes describes it in the form of two characters, that makes it sound like they’re two different kinds of people, when I think it’s actually more of a continuum, with some people aligning one way and some people aligning the other, with a few right in the middle.
Also felt the need to take down a couple JPW GC scores on two different Ghostbusters in the same weekend. 
Already marking his territory and not even here yet.
NES calls that ‘leaving them some homework’. lol
fucking classic.
Asteroid man, come back, we miss you 
Sorry to geek out on this, but I couldn’t help myself.
You both are essentially saying that you have an internal locus of control; ie. you control your destiny and are not simply at the whim of the machine. There is a good bit of academic research that says people enjoy things more when they have an internal locus of control and thus they do better than those who don’t since they will keep at it longer.
I hope I gave the impression that playing mistake free as the goal is PAPA Jon’s idea.
I talked to Neil a few days before INDISC this year and he was itching to go. Only bad (severe) weather kept him from going. I think we’ll all see more of Neil in the near future. Safe to say that he misses you all just as much as you miss him.
In the mean time, keep your pencils sharpened. His game hasn’t slipped at all. Plays most every day, as always. He talks about getting older occasionally, but I ain’t seeing it. Homework assignments will be forthcoming.