Can you remove yourself from a tournament after it starts?

I bailed after round three. Didn’t ask for money back, literally only told michael, then bailed. Life is way too short to stand in front of machines you don’t wanna play. I was raised a competitor, competing is the only reason I branch away from solo play, so when the games aren’t working, we start 40 minutes late, games and groups are chosen at random with no clearly defined playoffs, I gotta get goin. Pinball is one of the most magical things I’ve ever experienced, and I’d like to keep it that way, so I’ve cut back on going to an arcade that neglects the machines I love, and ignores those who play them, and I’m not participating in anymore social meet ups that pretend they’re competitions. Pinballz isn’t trying to run tournaments, they just know the word tournament is gonna get people in the door.

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It probably was taken lightly in this case. For whatever reason the manger/ TD left and delegated TD duties to someone who barely knew how to navigate Match play.

A better option would have been ask one of the experienced league TDs to take over. He knew we were there and willing to help.

We have run the SCS at Pinballz. Some people there know that the competitive players idea of a good event includes things like properly functioning tables, published formats, timely rounds and finals.

They run events as you would expect a novice TD to run them. Maybe start on time, just publish the rounds and let the players figure it out.

At some point you have to admit their priorities are not aligned with competitive pinball. Pinballz has two locations with over 75 machines so they’re great for casual players. For competitive play we have better options than letting Pinballz run the event.

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Lol goodluck with that. I have banned enough people over the years. All the location has to do is simply not turn the breaker for the games on.

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Yeah, good luck. If you don’t turn on the games then nobody (league or not) will be able to play. I’m guessing you aren’t in an arcade and maybe are in a barcade where if you don’t turn on the arcade machines you still get revenue. Not the case here. If you are in an arcade then you just showed them, now you don’t get any coin drop from them or anyone else on that investment (the machines). Smart move that I’m sure nets you some great revenue… Remember, we aren’t talking about one or 2 bad apples that abuse things (that we all get) you would be talking about upwards of almost 80 people during peak season. Any given month we net 30-40 players on Tuesday league and the Monday league is grown as well. I don’t think a place tailored towards pinball could survive to well if they alienate that number of people. Darin (the owner) is a smart man so I doubt that would ever be a consideration. I think he may have some employees that aren’t doing much to protect his brands image by making comments like that about league.

Furthermore, I’m also sure you banned these people for due cause (neglect or personal conduct). If you banned them for playing your machines and they were just to good then I wish you luck if you ever get sued. The “right to refuse” service has been fought and beaten countless times. All the patron has to do is claim you refused them service due to discrimination and you would have to prove otherwise.

In this case, I guess they could refuse “league play”. But since all league specific functions are done without their tools (well I guess they can refuse for use to use a pen but then we can bring our own) that claim wouldn’t have merit or be enforceable. When is it league and when is it a group of friends their having fun and just keeping score. Nobody is using anything but their games for “league” play and the use of their games is well within the written rules of the arcade.

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Im not saying I would ban a league, but don’t act like you own the dam place. All im saying is if the location owner wants you gone good luck. If your league has money changing hands, you could get banned because of gambling laws possibly etc etc

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Own the place… Are you kidding me? They made comment of not wanting league their because we create to much wear on their games. Opening your eyes and mind and understanding we aren’t treating them like we own the place. But in fact, we are just asking for a little effort and respect for being loyal and profitable patrons of their establishment that brings them additional business too.

In relation to wanting a refund for a tournament where the rules are changed. They are offering a product and not fulfilling their end of the obligation. Here’s an example to help you understand:

You order a steak dinner. It comes with 2 sides one of which is a salad (pretty common, right?). You get your salad as they always come first. You enjoy it and then the waiter shows up with grilled cheese and puts it on the table. You ask, “why did I get a sandwich, I ordered a steak?”. Waiter replies, “sorry, not enough time to cook your steak so we gave you a grilled cheese sandwich instead as that is all we had time for.”

Are you telling me you are going to eat the sandwich and happily pay for the steak dinner price? No difference here. The “salad” was the qualifying (coin drop) and the grilled cheese is the new finals format (1 game instead of 3 per round).

So, I ask you this. Why does the pinball company get a pass but the restaurant doesn’t. Both are offering a service.

This isn’t Wisconsin so we are fine.

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Depends if you asked for your refund after playing any games or not. Most arcades have a posted no refunds all sales final policy. Personally I would have given you a refund and politely suggested not to enter future events, as you would not be happy. Not sure why they wouldn’t want a league, maybe the over heard comment was just wrong or out of context. Unless your group causes trouble, like swearing loudly or messing with or turning off games when YOU think they are broken, etc

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I’m glad this post was made, because I have fielded multiple questions from people in my own scene asking about events where TDs deviated from the advertised tournament format after the tournament had already started. I think experienced TDs running high level competitive tournaments understand the issues to consider before making changes and, as many have said, don’t make the choice lightly. However, newer TDs, TDs not well versed in the IFPA rules or in broader competitive event management, or just TDs who aren’t thinking things through, might not realize that making late-term changes isn’t a good look.

I’m curious if there are certain changes that are generally better received. While my ultimate goal is no changes, I understand that time constraints can occur, and I personally am more okay with, like, realizing the number of qualifying rounds you advertised was overly optimistic and announcing that there will be fewer rounds, than I am with someone adding rounds or extending qualifying after the fact, which can look like they’re trying to benefit certain players at the expense of the current qualifiers.

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I’ve played in a couple to where time became an issue and the TD changed the format to where the remaining 3/4 games are played simultaneously vs just making it a one game only situation. They did it at Texas SCS side tournament as well as a local match play event.

Basically what they did was created a bank of games and had each person start their game and after draining your ball you moved to the next game and so on. It made for some interesting strategy differences and made you pay more attention as you were keeping track of multiple games. Not desirable but it was also fun for the one I participated in. Something like this may not be doable in an arcade environment that is also open to the public. I can see it also creating a bottle neck if the era of games are drastically different but it is a possible solution I don’t see used much.

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The Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show has done this during the semis and finals in past years. I played on a bank that was Frontier, Tommy, and Metallica. The ratio of standing around to playing was less than desirable, and it bugs me as a competitive player to change how I approach a competitive match (I really value the ability to watch and understand my opponents’ strategies and game progress), but it’s definitely an inventive change!

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I feel the same way. I’m generally okay with changes that make the tournament shorter (if they are needed!). I’m generally not okay with changes that make the tournament longer (respect my time, please).

I’m never okay with putting proposed changes to a vote amongst finalists. The TD should make their decision, then inform the players. Otherwise there are too many issues with group pressure and collusion.

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Oh and I’m almost always okay with format changes made before the tournament starts due to more or fewer players showing up than anticipated, though I would encourage the TD to advertise all format variations ahead of time. Like “With fewer than 16 players we will play 4 strikes; with 16 players or more we will play 3 strikes”

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Right. Like, I can imagine someone being annoyed and saying “if I had known this format would be this, I wouldn’t have come” but that’s different from making an in-tournament change that is likely to impact ongoing results.

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100% agree. At least you know beforehand the rules. Much better than getting half way through and things get changed on you.

For this tournament they ended qualifying late was to stop at 9:30 and ended at 10:15 because they wanted to play all 5 qualifying rounds vs just 4. So, they preferred another qualifying round and cutting finals short games vs keeping finals as is and ending qualifying at the advertised time but just 1 round short due to starting nearly an hour late.

Hey, so we opened a place called Pinballz. We put a bunch of pinball machines in. Our entire business model is based around people playing pinball. But if you could please do us a favor and not come around so often that you actually get good at pinball that would be great. Perhaps you could just look at the games and maybe buy some nachos.

Respectfully,
Pinballz Management

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You’re joking, but this is actually the situation.

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Part of the business model is not hiring enough techs to keep everything running but at the same time expand into two other locations.

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There’s no point in trying to guess the reason, or the urgency, the TD left.
The fact that he didn’t ask one of you to help on the night suggests that there is little to no relationship between the management and the ‘players’.
Have any of you gone in and spoke to the manager, not on a competition night? That goes a long way to building a relationship and preparing for the competition night.
I run a monthly league in a bar, and it could only have happened with a lot of communication away from tournament nights with the owner - not always perfectly amicable.

EXACTLY this.

Why should their priorities be the same as yours, or anybody else’s own agenda? Their priority has got to be to make money - it’s their business, and your hobby/pastime. They must feel that it’s more hassle than it’s worth to cater to, what they see, as every whim from the competition players. Let’s face it, we all know that arcades would go out of business pretty quickly if the only people playing pinball were up to the standard of the majority of players on here.
(Just last night me and a friend played BM66 (for the first time ever, so had to learn the quirks of the machine as we played and paid) for over 4hrs on just an initial £2/3 Credits. We walked away from the machine with 4 credits on)

You say there are better options.

It seems the simple solution, which pleases both parties, is to find another location, and/or run your own tournament.

True. But that’s the point @85vett was making: on a weeknight such as the Tuesday league night (run by players – not the mgmt), the league players make up the majority of the location clientele aka the majority of the $$ being spent on that night of the week.

However, @85vett and others, we have to also keep in mind that Pinballz aggregate coin drop over a month is likely 2/3 - 3/4 of it coming from their kiddie gambling devices (redemption games). So their focus on pinball is having them there as part of their namesake, and a potential draw for parents… and thus, their tech time spent on pins is predominantly to keep the coin mechs working flawlessly.

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Oh good lord you just busted my gut. I may just have to print that off and tape it somewhere next Tuesday.

Only halfway kidding about that :wink: